Hi people,
I'm back working on my truck !
A 1963 Dodge D200 (3/4 ton pick-up) with a slant 225 and a three speed transmission (colum shift) The engine is running good and strong , thanks to this forums "friendly experts"
I have only driven about 100 miles since than. This truck isn't my mainform of transportation but I like it and am bringing it up to par to be used as a reliable utility/work truck that can handle these rough desert roads.

Ok, now for the problem:

The clutch "shudders" on release and is difficult to get into first gear from neutral with the engine at idle. And sometimes have problem shifting into second gear.. I considered this a linkage adjustment issue but now I am rethinking. Let me continue....
These are serious take off "shudders" that shake the whole vehicle..
I have to slowly slip the clutch peddle to get going... not good !
But.. the clutch does not slip once underway and road feel is smooth.

Heres where I am now:

I bought a complete clutch kit, throwout bearing, pressure-plate, disc and pilot bushing...
And....
I have removed the tranny and all related old stuff. Well, everything but the flywheel and old pilot bushing.
Now what bothers me...is that the old stuff looks to be in very good condition.. the clutch is somewhat worn but nice looking, lots of meat on it, no glaze. It has an even, level wear on it and the springs look fine...if its warped it isn't visible and with a straight edge its flat.
The pressure plate also is in very good condition. No scratches or cracks on the flywheel ..feels smooth to my fingernail and no heat marks on it.
The flywheel is bolted on tight and appears fine. The throwout bearing is tight and spins fine. Motor mounts are good. Bellhousing is on tight.

What can it be than ? why the shudder/stutter/jerky take off ?
Now I am thinking "clutch action"? Truck has a hydrolic slave clutch action and the slaves pushrod looks to be adjustable.

Another thing I am concerned with is the transmission input shaft ..it has play in it, maybe over a 1/16th of an inch side to side. Splined cuts are good.

By now I'm sure you can tell I am an old shadetree mechanic.. I have done a lot of clutch jobs over the years and this one i just removed looks much better than any others I have ever replaced... If it weren't for the shudder problem? I would clean everything up...replace just the clutch disk and go with what I got...
But...
now I'm not sure what to do... I need advice and I thank you in advance...

_________________
~Spider
1963 Dodge D200 w/225
______________________
"The three great essentials to achieving anything worthwhile are; first, hard work, second, stick-to-it-iveness and third,
common sense."
- -- Thomas Edison

get your flywheel resurfaced. even if it looks ok it is probably the main cause of your shuddering problems. I've never had a clutch chatter from release linkage. get it resurfaced and change the disc and pressure plate. new pilot and throwout bearings and you should be good to go.

_________________
64' Valiant Signet 5.9, 64' Dart 170 moredoor 3.7, 67' A100 3.7, 00' Dakota SLT 4.7

Are all three fingers on the clutch cover at the same height when it's bolted to the flywheel?

_________________
Joshua

Resurfacing the flywheel is key to smooth clutch engagement, get the flywheel resurfaced no matter how nice it looks.

Another thing to check is to be sure the splined hub in the clutch disc is not bent, in relationship to the disc face. This can happen during installation, when attempting to "stab" a big / heavy gearbox through the bellhousing, disc splines and into the pilot bushing. If the transmission shifts the wrong way, while the input shaft is in the splines, the hub gets bent out of alignment to the disc face.
You can test this by sliding the old disc onto the trans input shaft, put the trans in a lower gear and spin the output shaft. This will spin the disc on the input shaft, fast enough to see if the disc face is true to the splines. If you see it wobble, it's bent and will chatter when engaged.
DD

Spider,

Experience made me a believer in getting that fly surfaced. Without even showing it the fly can have some hard spots that grab.

Then, I looked for years and finally got a great shape 3 speed column shift, complete with all levers, rods and bushings. I have concluded I now have no forseeable use for it...do you want a known good spare for free, only shipping?

rock
'64d100

I've also had those symptoms with other slightly related components:
Loose or missing tranny crossmember bolts
Bad U joints
Rear Brake misadjustment
Parking brake applied and did not release


-D.Idiot

Flywheel surfacing is $30-40.

With the time involved taking everything apart, and putting things back together, that's a cheap investment........

_________________
Ed
64 Valiant 225 / 904 / 42:1 manual steering / 9" drum brakes

Hey

I'm just leaving w/flywheel in hand to local Machine shop for resurface job ($35.oo)

so a quick response to the replies (the ones I can remember right now)

Joshie..."Yes"
Doc...good advice will check it out.
Roc.. "yes" I will e mail you in here tonite or tomorrow morning... Thanks!
Duster..Thanks, will check those parts for wear.

I wll let ya all know how it works out..
p.s.
I am also researching the new clutch kit.. Seems that Autozone sold me the wrong one...23 spline count and I have 10 on my tranny.
It's a ten inch clutch and I am gonna stop in NAPA and see what they have after I get my refund from "the zone"

_________________
~Spider
1963 Dodge D200 w/225
______________________
"The three great essentials to achieving anything worthwhile are; first, hard work, second, stick-to-it-iveness and third,
common sense."
- -- Thomas Edison

Does your starter mount high or low in the bellhousing? 10 spline sounds like it's similar to the NP435 granny 4 speed... but those used an 11" clutch....


-D.Idiot

Spider,

I ask only because I haven't seen a NP435 column shift but as I have said before I haven't seen everything! Do you have a 3 speed A745? Those are indeed the big clutch coarse spline. Is the tranny identifier stamped in the aluminum plate inside the driver door frame u nder the latch hole? Course I realize the tranny coulda been changed, but you sound pretty stock.

rock
'64d100

-D.Idiot, (and all who are interested)

Mounted low on the bottom of it.
And now after many phone calls, I have yet to find a clutch kit that will replace mine.

Got my flywheel resurfaced @ NAPA yesterday and the people there tried to find one and came up empty.
All suppler's and parts store listings show a 22 spline, 10 inch clutch for this truck....
Mine has a 10" plus a 10 count spline..

So far, I have three options (but there must be more that I'm not aware of yet ?)

1....give up and let it sit forever (I don't like that one @ all, so it's OUT !)
2....clean up everything and put back together (might try that after I check out Doc's "test", see above)
or......
3.... A local tranny shop owner told me there is a rebuilder in L.A. area where they will completely rebuild my existing parts ..
I like that one.. but the cost is like $400.00 plus shipping..Good idea, but bad for my skinny wallet. This would be a LAST RESORT !

So, I am still making calls and also asking anyone in here if they can provide me a source or maybe have a kit I could buy from them ?

Some spec's:

Three speed (on the tree) shifter, Hydrolic operated (clutch action)
Door frame I.D. Plate: 3 speed, A-745
Transmission # on side .....C75328
Transmission # on front.....C94632
10 spline input shaft
10 inch pressure plate and clutch
Pressure plate to flywheel (six bolts) mounting hole's are 5 and 13/16 inches center to center.
On front of clutch.."BORG BECK", Chicago Ill. 1519 (Model)
Pressure plate is lever type.. three of them..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
EDIT:
Just did Doc's test, (THANK'S DOC!) clutch plate runs true.
Tranny input shaft has about a 1/16th of an inch of 'side to side' play and there is no 'in and out' play.
(which the tranny re-builder told me is ok , sound good to you ?)

Also...
The more I handle the old clutch and p.plate? with clean hands?
the more I am noticing a somewhat slippery surface, not only on the p.plate but on the p. plate side of the clutch itself.. "glaze" ?

Also...
I can see that at one point a lot of oil has washed down the right side of the engine, from a leaking valve cover gasket (it doesn't leak now, I replaced the cork gasket w/a rubber one after valve adjustment.
The rear crank-seal is not leaking, dry around it and the oil pan is also dry on its gasket. But the tin flywheel cover was very oily.
Wondering about a leaky tranny too ? It has old/dry grease on top of it and oh yeah, the tranny bolts to bellhousing were very easy to remove, not much effort on my part, not finger loose but very low torque required.

Also....
The base of the throwout bearing is greasy. The base, not the bearing surface which is clean and spins smoothly. Back in the day, we said "thats good for another 100 thousand miles", of course that was a gamble an it could start squeeling after only 5 thousand miles. (and than go another 95k) ..but I regress.... It's much easier to type this than to lay under my truck in the hot desert dirt.. at least it's shady under there

Anyway, How bout some opinions on this idea? remembering that the clutch and related parts all show very little wear.

If I clean up, brake part cleaner spray the clutch surface...ect.. all the related parts... put everything back, I wouldn't have much to lose other than my labor. Lots of work and yes it's a gamble. Maybe i should take a poll ?

If I do do this? how can the old pilot bushing be removed without ruining it?
I do have a new one...The inside diameter is correct for the nose of the tranny shaft but cant tell if the O.D. is right , although I held it up to the exiting one and it looks to be.



So far thats all the 411 that I can provide right now, hope it helps.


Advance thanks for the help and advice !

_________________
~Spider
1963 Dodge D200 w/225
______________________
"The three great essentials to achieving anything worthwhile are; first, hard work, second, stick-to-it-iveness and third,
common sense."
- -- Thomas Edison

Spider,


OK, I thought it was a 745. Good tranny. Even though you are a D200 you are not driveline different than the US Gov't D100 I started with. DI and I are saying the same thing..in essence the really big clutch came with these trucks and that is why they have the big low mount iron bell and whopper flywheel.

Now, as to oil everywhere..man, mine looked like an oilite bearing! Remember those old bearings...a metal made porous and impregnated with oil to serve as a bearing! Darn if my clutch didn't engage and work fine even completely impregnated, but it did chatter on takeoff. Still if you are in that deep I REALLY would not put the bad parts back in as a permanent fix, and if you think that clutch is hard to find now, wait 10 more years. You can scrub it with Autozone's house brand of brakeclean..this is the real stuff that isn't greasy, burns your skin and truly cleans items. I am sure it is not as eco friendly as some but clutch discs are tough.

I would seriously clean and be sure the rear main seal is not leaking. You can readily change it without removing the tranny anyway. Scrub off the back of the block to see if odd leaks are pouring donw.

II think t is time for you to do the 833 OD 4 speed conversion and have FUN. You need a bell, fork, clutch set, and tranny and shifter. I wouldn't be surprised if all those parts couldn't be had for half what a new clutch set can be bought for. I recently offered the complete set I had in my D100 for $525 for instance. I also have a spare driveshaft made to order for these trucks having with a 489 case 8/34 rear end. Large Ujoints..3290?

That tranny will handle the D200 load just fine, particularly if the tranny has 308 bearings fore and aft. I can even send you a carboard template of the hole you cut in the floor hump near the gas pedal for the shifter.

Summary, I'd clean it and bolt er back up and see what happened, and broaden my tranny solutions. Things improved since 1963-66.

Rock
'64d100

Rock,

Thanks for the reply, I am gonna do this. Clean and put old stuff back in. Using your tips when I crawl back up under the truck.
This is a "just for now" thing for me and I eventually will be doing the upgrade you recommend.
If the clean-up/ reinstall is successful and I can go from a start w/out shudder? I will baby it (don't use it much anyway) and than start financially working for the conversion you so thoughtfully have laid out here.
Conversion is what I need and want for sure. This old truck is so solid. It has no rust, simple to work on and only 45 years old !
I can see it going another 45 easily. It deserves an upgrade.

Rock, I appreciate your shift linkage offer and lets hold up on shipping it right now until I get the truck moving again and can re-evaluate the linkage thats on it now. And if it is working ok? I won't be needing yours,..Please don't throw it away.. I will keep ya posted.
Speaking of 4 speeds I have a old 62 Ford short bed 1/2 ton parked for a few years with a blown 6 cyl engine..
The tranny in it is excellent.. but I have no idea what brand it is.
It's a four on floor w/granny. (four forward 1 reverse..) I was wondering if it is something that would work in the Dodge ? (maybe w/ an adapter plate (which probably can't be had anymore) do you know ? It's a big transmission but the mounting holes, tranny to bell, look to be about the same as the Dodge.. Or maybe I could trade it to someone locally.. shipping would be way high.

Anyway, I will be starting the clean and reinstall this weekend and keep ya posted.
Again thanks !

_________________
~Spider
1963 Dodge D200 w/225
______________________
"The three great essentials to achieving anything worthwhile are; first, hard work, second, stick-to-it-iveness and third,
common sense."
- -- Thomas Edison

Spider,

I would drive it shudder or no. You already know what is inside it and will have a feel for what might be going wrong if stuff gets worse. I love these old Dodges because they are SO tough. You can read on the forum about slants running with holes in the block, busted rods and so on....well they go on just fine with essentially no clutch in them too. Not all of us need Durango's to feel as if we have achieved life's goal.

Rob (DI) really knows these trannies. I have just rebuilt em, played with em and swapped em in an out, and learned a lot of what I needed to know to start from Rob's shared knowledge. Heck, once you get over the fear of pulling them, all that's is left is opening them up! My A745 had seals so badly shot that NO oil was in the tranny for 50,000 miles. Not only shudder but hum. But it was at that point a $100 truck so who cared!

My personal opinion is that unless you are wanting to do load work like the D200 was made for, you won't want one of the granny gear toploaders. Each to his own and I loved pulling stumps, but I can do that with an 833 too. I would like to share some pics with you of what can be done and what my D100 looks like now. It has a prize as best Mopar truck in south region at a meet a few years ago and only has gotten better. All done in the backyard.

If you care to send me an email to rock at intrex dot net I will share some pics and more info with you.

Good Luck,
rock

Rock,

Thanks and yes, I will send you my address (via my G-mail)

I'm looking forward to seeing the photos of your truck.
I was gonna start the "clean-up" (degrease the engine block, bellhousing, tranny etc..) this weekend. But my best of plans didn't work out and had to replace my well-pump instead...Oh well...
Back on the truck this week.


Spider (aka: David)


* my bad, will resend...

_________________
~Spider
1963 Dodge D200 w/225
______________________
"The three great essentials to achieving anything worthwhile are; first, hard work, second, stick-to-it-iveness and third,
common sense."
- -- Thomas Edison