My car just seems to be a dog of the line, gutless, will only spin the rear wheels (sure grip equipped 3.55:1, and 904 with rev. valve body, unknown stall) on gravel, not on pavement. After reading this site since February I get the impression these cars equipped as mine is should be able to roast some rubber.

When I was working under this car getting it back on the road, the rear trunk floor behind the rear wheels were caked with bits of melted rubber, so I know at one time she could spin'em.

Today I sprung for a new compression tester, and vacuum gage with the idea that a few tests will be of use. Perhaps point out any problems preventing better performance.

This 225 engine has an unknown performance cam that gives a loping idle, a 1977 head (small plugs), Clifford intake & headers no x pipe, Holley #4160 390 cfm., recent valve adjustment (hot), and the orange EI. I do not know how many miles are on this engine. However one of the previous owners put 55,000 miles on the clock from 1993 to 2007. I suspect he was the one that did all the engine work, and was the one that dragged her.

I don't have a tachometer so rpm has been SWAGED. (scientific wild ass guess)

Vacuum test:
Engine off, carb wide open, pvc plugged, taping manifold vacuum I got zero inches.

Engine running, manifold vacuum at idle steady 10 inches.
2000 rpm 16-18 inches.
3000 rpm 20+/-, and up to 24 inches after a rev-up to closed throttle.

Compression test: #1-#6 = 135, 140, 135, 135, 140, 130 psi. 130 is 92% of 140

The FM lists 110-140 psi for stock so these figures look good.

Could this engine have a higher than stock compression ratio, or is this just plane old stock?

Should I pull the head this winter and have a look see, or let sleeping dogs lay? What kind of HP & torque should one be getting from this set up?

I have 2 inch duals with free flow mufflers, will adding an "X" pipe perk this machine up any?

Tomorrow I am going to check the timing, and timing advance springs etc. to see what is there, as well as check operation of the mechanical advance. Do I need to pull the distributer, or can the springs be accessed while the unit is still installed?

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.
82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

Pulling the dizzy is the easiest way to access the springs.

At idle you are pulling 10"?

That seems a bit low.

Could be that your timing chain has stretched, and the cam is now retarded. That will cause a pretty significant drop in off-idle torque. With only 55k on the clock since rebuild, the chain has definitely stretched, but since this seems to be a "better-than-stock" engine, they stretch the chains faster than your typical slant.

Those PSI numbers are within specified parameters of most engines.

What shape is your carb in? (gaskets, throttle shaft/bushings, etc...)

What is your initial timing set at?

~THOR~

_________________
1984 D100 Shorty Custom
Certified Auto Appraiser - RevItUp Classic Appraisals
President - Cherry City Bombers CC
Part of Tyrde-Browne Racing

Hi,
I am sure you will get a response from more knowledgeable people on this topic....but with the list of mods it sounds like it should be able to spin them easily...I am sure it is just a matter of getting the combination sorted out and you will be rewarded with a great running car. My '72 Valiant is still 1 barrel holley and has a stock 904 and 2.76 gears and it will spin the tires if I stand on it from a stop ( it's a little torque monster ). It has gone 17.8's in the 1/4 at 74 mph, nothing special. Spinning the tires does not a great car make....but it sure is satisfying to feel the power and to get that confirmation. nico

What are the current valve lash setting?
Have you tried loosing the lash to see if idle quality and manifold vacuum improves?
DD

Have you tried spraying carb cleaner on the manifold runners and carb to see if you're getting any vacuum leaks?

Thor,

Lord only knows when the carb was last rebuilt, and he ain't saying.
There is a wee bit of play in the secondary throttle shaft. It gives a good strong squirt, but has a flat spot when the secondaries open then pulls smoothly. No black smoke, no backfire out of carb, no fuel leaks, and looks clean inside. I was thinking performing a carb rebuild this winter.

I thought that 10 inches of vacuum was a bit low, so tomorrow I will be spraying around.

Initial timing is +10 or 12 deg., can't recall. I'll get a new gear & timing chain. Any recommendations?

Spinning Wheels Department:

I need to make smoke roll out of the wheel wells at least once to demonstrate to a fellow old car guy with a 450+hp plus a 150 NO2 shot SS 69 Nova, who never misses an opportunity to burn out, that the Dart (Sponge Bob Square Trunk) can make more than just noise.

It is a face saving thing with us old guys. I kinda pissed him off during shows telling everyone that expresses interest in his ride that it's painted in Hemi Orange, not hugger orange, and that is why they like it! I'm too cheep to be buying tires to make this a vocation.

Doc,

Valve lash is .010" intake & .020" exhaust, set hot & messy with the engine running.

By increasing the lash doesn't that lessen the aggressiveness of the cam? I have seen .012" & .022" suggested as an alternative.

When I adjusted the lash about 1,000 miles ago several of them were way loose, and a few were on the tight side, but not more than .003 tighter. Hopefully none of the valves were burned.

The bottom end acts nice and tight, no baring noise, good oil pressure, no oil consumption, no blue smoke, or leaks.

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.
82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

Most aftermarket cams work better with more lash so you may want to try looser settings. With-out getting into a lot of detail, getting the intake valve to close a little sooner may help by building more manifold vacuum and cylinder pressure.

Try loosing both the intake and the exhaust lash clearance until the valves start to "clatter" or tick, then tighten the lash just enough to make the tick stop. Check manifld vacuum and cranking compression to see if the looser lash setting improves the readings.
Dd

If all you want to do is smoke tires put a line lock on the front brakes. Then you can burn them right down to the pavement. Thanks Ron Parker










Any More Bees Want To Get Smoked

Let's build on some of this...

Doc's suggestion is correct, the 'loping idle' can be from over tightened lash... since you don't have the cam card and have to take a 'guess', loose is better... standard comp cams are tight like .012... stock cam 10/20... but some larger lobed or softer ramp profiles like things way out in the .022+ range....

Where did you plug your vacc. gauge in at... at runner #6 only gives you an idea of 'that' runner... if you want to see what is happening from the carburator's perspective (and it's nice to know if it's not getting good vacc.), is to look under the primary fuel bowl and hook the hose and gauge to the nipple there, you get to see vacc. after the throttle plates, and that can also tell you how your plates are positioned while driving....
10 is not a good number for idle...(unless you have a 300+ degree cam in your hemi super stock....)

Another way to get a 'good' idea of what you have for a cam, is to beg borrow, or buy a cheap dial indicator and magnetic base... you can pull the valve cover and roll the engine over by hand with the tip at the end of the rocker arm (true lift if done off the pushrod, lift divided by 1.5-ish if you measure at the valve end), measure an intake and an exhaust and that can give you wide idea of what's in there (if it's .435 on the valve end... it's a lower end cam... if you get .5... well that might explain a few things...)


Good luck, on 'guess that mystery build'....


-D.Idiot

D.I.,

My first attempt to read vacuum was off of the front bowl location, where I got a zero reading. Than to plan "B", from dead center of the manifold under the carb where the pvc hose is attached, again zero inches.

Sorry for the fuzzy photos, flash & closeup setting don't seem work for some reason.

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.
82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

Doc,

Spent most of the day messing around retesting, adjusting, and performing an autopsy on the distributor. Additionally I removed the valve train to clean the oil passages as there was evidence of weak oil flow. Oil is now flowing better.

Results:
old setting
intake #1-#6: .010, .010, .012, .010, .012, .014
Exhaust .020, .019, .020, .120, .018, .020

New settings
intake .012" exhaust .022"

Vacuum:
old readings
not running: zero inches
Running @ idle 10 inches

New readings
not running: 2-3 inches
Running @ idle 14 inches
2500-3000 rpm 18 to 20 inches (3.55:1 rear end)

Timing
old readings:
no vacuum advance @ idle, 12-14 deg. with jittery mark on pulley
Approx 2500 rpm around 33 deg.
With Vacuum advance connected 40 to 43 deg.
I had to measure down the pulley in inches and use a ratio based on the -10 to +10 deg. timing marks to arrive at these numbers.

No new timing readings presently as the distributor is out of the car. What nasty spot to locate a distributer, oil filter, and coil, jezzz. I use to think setting the points on my old 273 was a pain... childs play.

EI Distributor findings:
Vacuum advance stamped "7R"
Tag on distributor reads: 22-9 3690788, and it has the stinking nylon gear

Oddly there was only one red spring to be found, the other spring was missing.

Should I leave out the second spring, or scrounge a new one up from the forum?

Idle is now a bit smother, but still has a lope.

Bill

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.
82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

You are making progress.
Did you try loosing the intake lash even more? Do not be worried about running .018 or even .020 on the intake lash setting, as long as it does not "tick" at that wider lash setting.

Yes on running a stiff secondary advance spring, one with a loop in it so it "hits" late and slows the advance down for the final 4 to 6 degrees.
DD

Thanks Doc,

Having just had a thought while viewing the food channel, that perhaps I may have installed the rocker shaft upside down, and wrong end to, I rechecked the FM for the skinny.

The FM points out a flat spot on the end of the shaft that is to face forward, and up. I did not find or feel a flat spot on the rocker shaft. So help a virgin shaft installer here, do the oil holes point up, and how can I identify the correct forward end of the shaft without the flat spot? Figure 9 illustrating this situation in the FM is not of high enough quality to show this.

Check the "Parts Wanted" page for a spring request you all.

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.
82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

That's not a good sign if it's running and both of those ports have no vaccuum... they both are carved into the base plate of the carb.... what gasket did you use under the carb? (large open square or 4 holes...)

Rebuild would be good, if she's a pre 1992 carb it may need the power valve protection kit installed at that time too (will save you from ruptruing the power valve diaphragm in case of a back fire)....

Is you dizzy a points or EI distributor, I have some extra 'primary' springs...

-D.Idiot

DI,

I'm now getting a wee bit of engine off vacuum from the base of the carb. I don't know the vintage of the carb, chances are it was new when when the 1993 to 2007 owner built the engine. I'm thinking of rebuilding the carb to just freshen it up this winter when the snow is piled high.

Would you know any rebuild kit part numbers for a Holley #4160, my local NAPA guy couldn't find any listings which I thought was odd.


I have the ubiquitous orange box EI sans points, and sure could use one of your extra springs. PM me, I'll work out the details with you.

A few after thoughts:

The valve springs are painted red, is this significant? 340 springs?

I belive there is an Erson cam installed due to two dime sized stickers on the rear side windows.

Some of the lack of vacuum traced to a carb nipple plug cobbled up from a short length of rubber hose with a sheet metal screw wound in to it.

I could find no other leaks around the base of the carb and intake runners.

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.
82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC