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Eatkinson
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:53 am 
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Car Model: Once owned a 1963 Dart 170 Suburban
Hello all-

I've got a 1963 Dart wagon, with a very tired 225. She's got about 170K original on her, and the engine has never been apart, and has some maintenance issues that have been deferred far too long.

I recently got the car out of long term storage, and as should be expected, started running into all sorts of issues. However, the car ran at the time. It has now been over a month since I've had the car running, though not for lack of trying. SlantSixDan has been giving me invaluable assistance, so thanks Dan.

Things the car needed when I got started: 1) carburetor rebuild, 2) valves adjusted, 3) low cylinder compression - need to determine which ones are going down, 4) new distributor/rotor/cap, plugs, etc, 5) fuel pump.

Thus far, I have rebuilt the carburetor, put on a new distributor cap, rotor, plugs, and changed out the fuel pump. I was hoping that would at least solve the problem of her not starting. But, that's not the case. She makes half-hearted feeble attempts, but not very convincingly.

Symptoms: When the car was last running, the engine was idling...let's say...roughly. I knew the compression in a cylinder or two might be low, but at least the car ran. As the days went by, the car got progressively harder to start. On a cold startup, the engine acted like only a few cylinders were firing initially, before the rest of them started catching up. Noticed the fuel pump had started leaking, so began examining how to remove the pump, when I discovered one strap on the old distributor cap had been been in the 'sprung-off' position for some time and the cap was loose. Snapped it back on, but the car didn't want to start. Played with the rotor and cap assembly and finally got the right position, enough so the car started, but only after adjusting the cap position and fiddling with it.

Cut to now, and I have not been able to get the car to start. Per Dan's suggestion, adjusted the timing (which I had not previously disturbed) as far counter-clockwise as I could, since we deduced the timing chain has stretched and is most likely needing replacement.

The car is still not starting, and I'm unsure of what to do next. Do people have suggestions for how to get this puppy started? My next step was going to be a cold compression test to determine that I actually have enough compression for the engine to run. What are other people's thoughts?

Oh, the entire fuel system has recently been gone through, and the car is definitely getting gas in the newly rebuilt carburetor. It doesn't act like it wants to start (I'm not getting multi-cylinder pops) even when I use spray start down the carb throat, so something has definitely gone awry.

I realize that of all the elements an engine needs to run (Fuel, Spark, Compression, and adequate cranking speed), I know I have Fuel, Spark, and adequate cranking speed. Compression is my only unknown.

Sorry for the long post. Thoughts on how to get this thing going, for now?
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Brussell
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:23 am 
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I'm not as experienced as pretty much anyone else on the board, but can you give us some idea of what not starting is?
Does it just continually crank...? Does it sputter a little bit and die. does it just keep going?

I Would check compression. Perhaps their isn't enough and/or there is a vaccum leak as well.
I would check over carb to make sure there's not fuel soak or anything etc.

I had a problem when I put in a new ignition system, and ended up blowing the muffler :/ big split right in the middle.
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snarl
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:31 am 
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Have you adjusted the valves yet?
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wjajr
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:31 am 
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Check for burnt or poorly adjusted points.

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69a100
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:42 am 
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How long did this car sit? I'd do a cold compression check and report back here on the #'s you have, that will help. I would look at a plugged up exhaust as well. Good Luck
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Doctor Dodge
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:29 am 
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Vote number 2... pull the valve cover and check & adjust valve lash... before doing anything else.
DD
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Eatkinson
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:12 am 
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Car Model: Once owned a 1963 Dart 170 Suburban
Doctor Dodge & Snarl: Valves have not been done yet. Doesn't the engine need to be running while you're adjusting valve lash, in order to get it done properly?

691a100: Car sat from 1999-2010, with only a few occasional start-ups and drives. Will do a cold compression check and report the #'s.

Wjajr: Checked out the points recently. Didn't seem burnt; they were open and closing as should be, and did see spark, but maybe I don't realize I'm looking at burnt point contacts. Will look again and replace if need be.
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Doc
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:27 am 
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Check the lash cold and adjust to .011 intake & .021 on exhaust. (looser is better then too tight)
Older engines can have some "valve recession" that will close-up the lash clearance and no clearance "hangs" the valve(s) open... lowering compression and can make the engine hard to start.
One sign of this is if the engine cranks over un-evenly... skipping thru low compression cylinders as it cranks-over.
DD
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Eatkinson
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:09 pm 
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Car Model: Once owned a 1963 Dart 170 Suburban
Thanks Doc. I will undertake a cold valve lash adjustment. This engine has always had uneven cranking, all the 13 years I've owned it. Of course, I am partly to blame, never adjusting the valves. But then, I barely drove the car. It's getting back at me for all my neglect. Will report back.
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69a100
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:12 pm 
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I just thought of something else. Make sure your condenser is good and tight with a good ground if you haven't checked that.
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Eatkinson
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:03 pm 
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Car Model: Once owned a 1963 Dart 170 Suburban
On closer inspection, points are definitely burnt. Took a clean sheet of paper, ran it through the points as best I could, got some of the smudge off, and the engine tried much harder to start than she did recently. Will go get a new set of points and install; then I'll let you know if she's alive.
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60 Plymouth
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:52 am 
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Replace the condenser too - if the points are burnt then the condenser may be shot, and your new points won't last as long as they should. I personally believe they should be replaced as a pair.

You may at some point want to look into electronic ignition or HEI, it's a good upgrade and means you no longer have to worry about points.

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wjajr
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:24 am 
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Good point 60 Plymouth. Back in the day when my daily driver was a 270, 273 ci Dart when purchasing points the request always included a condenser.

I have to belive that forty plus years later, dialectricts have improved, and can be reliable longer than 12,000 miles. 12K being the service interval for points, that is; inspect gap, condition, and lubricate cam every 6K or six months, it is quite possible they are out of adjustment.

I suspect that in addition to a possible point problem, adjustment of valve lash would be top of "To-Do List".

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82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

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Eatkinson
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:31 pm 
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Update:

SHE'S ALIVE. A new set of correctly-adjusted points, and new condenser did the trick. When I removed the old points, there were practically no points at all left, don't know how I didn't see that. No wonder the engine was not starting!

But, this doesn't make up for needing the valve lash adjustment, etc., so I have more work to do, but thanks to all for your help and thoughts. I'll continue to post updates on how all the deferred maintenance is making a difference. I still need to do either a leak-down test or cold compression check to figure out what to do about my uneven idling....
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Eatkinson
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:46 am 
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Car Model: Once owned a 1963 Dart 170 Suburban
Quote:
Good point 60 Plymouth. Back in the day when my daily driver was a 270, 273 ci Dart when purchasing points the request always included a condenser.

I have to belive that forty plus years later, dialectricts have improved, and can be reliable longer than 12,000 miles. 12K being the service interval for points, that is; inspect gap, condition, and lubricate cam every 6K or six months, it is quite possible they are out of adjustment.

I suspect that in addition to a possible point problem, adjustment of valve lash would be top of "To-Do List".
Question Wjajr: the FSM states to clean and lubricate cam with Cam/Distributor grease, and then gives a #. What is this, and can I go get it at any auto-parts store? I got the car running, but the distributor cam looks relatively dry. It should be cleaned/lubricated and I want to make sure I'm using the right stuff
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