Pardon my ignorance but I have to ask if I have the proper graps on the term 'lean burn'. Does it refer to the spark delivery systems which use Electronics (fixed distributor)to vary the ignition timing and not machanical devices on the distributors?

I have been taking a look at the 36-1 wheel offered, Even though it obviously works, I would love to try an come up with something a little less barbaric looking. Not sure what a guy can do but I am sure a guy could take a trip to the junk yard and make something work.

Sam, Like you I have to sit down and wrap my head around this stuff. It just doesn't come natural to me. Ignition systems aren't something I deal with very often being a Journeyman Heavy Truck Diesel Tech. However I love learning and finding new ways to apply technology to automotive projects.

Back to ignition choices. LOL. Call me immature but a part of me always cringes when I hear about putting ford parts/systems in my mopars. Can you makes me feel better and list the actual manufacturer ha ha ha . Is it designed by Bosch perhaps. I could deal with telling folk I upgraded to a bosch ignition system ran by MS.

Ryan

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1969 Dart Custom (great grandmother bought new in '68 )
1990 Daytona running 20psi
2007.5 CTD 3500 Megacab

HI Ryan, I understand the reluctance to put GM or Ford systems in a Mopar, but if it works better, I would do it. I have a GM one wire alternator on mine. It puts out better at low RPM than the Mopar. I have a mini starter, which was used my Mopar, but originated outside the family so to speak, but I got really tired of trying to find an old style heavy Mopar starter that would work. I have a GM fuel pump in the tank. I have GM disk brakes on the rear. Until recently there was not as much after market upgrade stuff to chose from for Mopar, so many of us went outside the fold to modify the design. Much of the aftermarket stuff simply modifies GM parts to apply to Mopar.

Lou has a Ford rear in one of his cars. I have a Ford T-5. It was made by Borg Warner, which I suppose is the kind of information you are looking for with the EDIS. I cannot tell you much about the EDIS. I think it is home grown Ford, but they probably do get their parts from outside sources. Although Ford used to be a classic vertical manufacturing company who made everything in house, I am not sure that is still the case.

In my opinion, there are two challenges with the slant and Mega Squirt. As I said, fuel is pretty simple. But, the slant is a cold blooded engine. When it is first started, it needs considerable richness to stay running. I think this is because the intake sits out in the air away from the heat, and the runners are pretty long. The megasquirt ECU has designed into it an "Afterstart" enrichment duration. The longest one available is too short. You can set it for no longer than 256 fueling cycles, which is about 25% of what the slant would like. It takes at least 2, and ofter 3 restarts to keep it running. After a minute or two it will idle without careful monitoring, and quick little enrichment jabs of the throttle to keep it going when it falters. Once warm it runs fine. MS II has an idle air solenoid control valve control circuit built in, but it is not designed to maintain a specific RPM, but instead stays open a specified amount for a specified time period. I never have gotten my IAS control to work. I also found the instructions in the Manual unclear. I could not understand how you set it. But, it never responded at all, so it was a mute point.

This is a major weakness in the EFI/slant marriage if you plan on driving it. I want my car to start right up, and idle well. These cars get alot of attention from the public these days. People will be watching you to see how well this old girl works. If it stumbles and dies 3 times when starting after you come out of a store, for instance, it is frankly embarrassing, and does not speak well for the hobby, or Mopar.

I will eventually look into some sort of manual control of the IAS whereby I could reach down and open or close it with a push of a momentary SPTD rocker or some such thing. This would involve doing a little research to find out if an electronic control circuit for the stepper motor in an IAS can be either purchased or made. This would indeed solve the problem. If I open the throttle a touch when starting it up, it does not want to die after 256 fueling cycles. I also have an old Mopar solenoid off a carburetor which I could set up to hold the throttle blade open a bit until warm. I do currently have a purge valve for emissions wired up to allow more air into the TB with the push of a rocker switch, but it is too little air to solve the problem. It will raise the rpm only about 200 and it needs to raise it maybe 600 for cold starts. This is about right to counteract the effects of the electric cooling fan coming on.

The second issue which requires so real research, and deeper understanding, than I have anyway, is how the ignition works. What design are you going to use, and how will it interface between the slant, and the ECU? The crank must talk to the ECU and the ECU must send the spark back to the plugs at precisely the right time.

And finally, Yes. The lean burn distributor was a fixed unit with no internal advance of any kind. Apparently it is set up so the phasing between the rotor and reluctor pickup is correct. You want the vane on the pickup trigger to pass the magnetic pick-up unit 7 degrees after the rotor aligns dead center with the spark wire tower. If it does not, the spark will happen when the rotor is too far away from the wire contact inside the cap. Advanced timing will likely happen too far ahead of the arrival of the rotor, or maybe the other way around. The spark will arrive after the rotor has passed the tower contact. IN either case, she doesn't run, or there is a misfire at best.

So, you can see, with a crank trigger, and the Ford EDIS, or some other coil pack system, the phasing issue is gone. With a coil pack, the issue of where the rotor is in relationship to the cap is non existent. With some study you could likely find a newer Mopar distributor less ignition to apply, but the EDIS has already been researched and documented, and supported by MS II.

Keep asking questions. Many, many of them I will have to plead ignorance on, but there will be others who maybe will chime in and help us out.

Sam

T

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Sure does sounds EDIS is the way to go. I was reading some on your older post about this phasing issue and can see why direct coil control is just easier. Less moving parts to set up, and less moving parts to wear out. The fact that EDIS is supported by MS is a big plus. My hands will be full just trying to figure out what someone has invented. So I'll swallow my pride and look at putting *gulph* ford parts in my dodge. LOL On the plus side going with the EDIS system there is tons of forum support for WHEN i run into issues.

You talk about this enrichment issue and warm up hassles. Blaming it on the long runners and distance of intake from heat. So...TBI. Are the Multiport injection guys (Lou??) having the same issues?

Okay now that I mention injection I'll ask for some clarification on MPI. To go MPI one needs to run non-sequential injection, correct? How exactly does non sequentail firing work? Sequential firing of the injectors will require a cam sensor and set up of the MS board A,B,C,D,E,F with firing order 1,5,3,6,2,4.

If this will take to much explaining don't explain everything as i know the information is out there. I just to to sit down and research. Right now I am getting yelled at to go get ready for a wedding I must attend today. So no time to research at the moment. HA.


Ryan

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1969 Dart Custom (great grandmother bought new in '68 )
1990 Daytona running 20psi
2007.5 CTD 3500 Megacab

I run a batch fire MPI set up. It has 6 injectors in bungs at the base of the intake port. 3 injectors fire at a time, and the fuel waits there till the valve opens, which only takes milliseconds at speed. The difference in performance and economy between sequential, and batch fire is very minor.

And yes, even with MPI, the cold start issues are still there. I am convinced that raising the rpm for a few minutes would eliminate this problem.


This issue had much to do with the demise of our beloved slant. Through the seventies, when the EPA was demanding cleaner tailpipes with limited technology, the slant had miserable cold start drivability. CARB especially was requiring the chokes come off sooner than they were ready to idle reliably. More than one housewife walked back to the house and said I am not driving that damned car again, after it died at the first stop sign or light down the street from the house. I know one of them.

Edit at 6:11 PM, [ IN DC the taxis drivers would start their slant powered cabs in the morning, and never shut them down all day. These engines were perfect for that application.]

So, let's solve this problem now. How about it?

Sam

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In the diesel world. manual high idle is just a fact of life with the engines.
is it possible with MS to have a setting to have high idle enable. Flip a switch and ecm will maintain 1100 rpm (or what ever the setting) til shut off. This would eliminate the need to sit there with the foot on the throttle to keep it running after 256 cycles end. I know this is probably stretching the capability of the MS but would be a nice feature. This would work similar to your manual IAC set up. Maybe that is the easiest fix as i doubt ms have the functionality to add a manual high idle feature through the MS ecm.

Okay so the batch firing only requires you to have 2 MS output for injectors. right? A and B. Firing 360 degrees and then again at 720 degrees.

Semi sequential appears as it would be no more beneficial than batch firing as you would still have a fuel sitting at one cylinder waiting for the valves to open to let it into the cylinder. So only minor economical and efficiency issues between batch and sequential huh? okay.

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1969 Dart Custom (great grandmother bought new in '68 )
1990 Daytona running 20psi
2007.5 CTD 3500 Megacab

There is no manual fast idle setting in MS. Mega Squirt is shareware, with open code, and they encourage customizing for such things. But that would go way beyond my expertise. You can find discussions of such esoterica on the forum, but it is in the stratosphere over my head.

However, the manual stepper motor control really intrigues me. I am going to start a search for something on that. Let me know if you find anything. I know there is test circuit for IAC stepper motors out there. It seems that would be a good starting point for such a thing. I think maybe it was Pierre in California who mentioned something like this when I was trying to trouble shoot my IAS circuit.

Sam

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been reading a bit about the IAC circuit and the MS3. If I use the MS3 and expansion module I can wire the IAC valve right to the MS3x board.

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/hardware.html#wiring

It says you can use the IAC with input from momentary or toggle switch for functions like launch, idle-up, nitrous, datalogging.

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/Idle_Con ... 0000000000

Here is suggests you can set the IAC for a 15 minute period warm up. Surely this would be enough to of a warm up period. Being much longer than the 256 cycles. Is this function unavailable with the MS2?

Now would this provide the 600rpm increase required? Question sam. Why is the electric cooling fan coming on at a cold start?

Ryan

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1969 Dart Custom (great grandmother bought new in '68 )
1990 Daytona running 20psi
2007.5 CTD 3500 Megacab

I wasn't clear with that paragraph was I. The purge solenoid is enough to bring the idle up when the fan does come on, but does not yield enough to raise the RPM enough for cold, start up idle.

Thanks for those links. I will read them.

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Why don't you just use the ignition driver in Megsquirt to drive the ignition? If you get a V3 board and at least MSII, you can easily run ignition straight from the MS. I'm doing that on my slant - I locked the stock distributor and the MS is reading the reluctor signal directly from that. I am using no stock ignition parts in the car except the distributor.

With respect to Sam, I dropped mine in and it worked first time. I did put a cap on with a hole on #1 to check the phasing. I was able to get it pretty good although I didn't measure the degrees It ran great and I can now control my timing with a click of the mouse. I used a Mopar E-core coil and it throws a blue spark over half an inch to the block.

With that said, when I redo this setup I will go to a 36-1 wheel and an EDIS setup. A timing light shows just how much variation there is in the timing chain-driven system. Eliminating the distributor will cure all that.

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It's a Slant thing. Even I don't understand.

1974 Duster, EFI /6 soon to be turbo...

Get that Monkay! Get that nasty thing!!

Hey, if it works, it is good. They say it is better to be lucky than good. Gun Pilot, I think you are a little bit of both; good, and lucky. AT this point I think I lack a little of both. But, I am learning, and still on target, so to speak. IN the old days they would have called this range finding. No laser guidance system on my sights yet.

Sam

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range finding LOL

AKA trial and mostly error?


Hey Sam, Lou, Matt, or Gun pilot. Would any of you be willing to send me your msq tune files? I would love to be able to play around with tunerstudio with an actual running slant 6 tune. LMK

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1969 Dart Custom (great grandmother bought new in '68 )
1990 Daytona running 20psi
2007.5 CTD 3500 Megacab

The MS normally does this thing automatically by coolant temperature. The B&G code versions let you set the idle control valve opening by temperature; the Extra and MS3 codes let you specify the RPM. I don't really see a reason to trigger this manually when the coolant temperature based version works pretty well.
That's about the size of it. Full sequential would need a crank trigger plus a modified distributor.

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"Mad Scientist" Matt Cramer
'66 Dart - turbocharged 225
My blog - Mad Scientist Matt's Lair

Ryan,

I can send you some files, sure. PM me an email I can send them to. They are all megatune 2.25 files (MSI, v2.2 hardware).

Anyone else?

Lou

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Home of Slant6-powered fun machines since 1988

Hopefully I will be able to get that to work once Peter is finished with the ECU work. I have not heard from him in over a week. I hope he is working on it, but do not want to bug him until I get my wipers fixed. The connection there is that I would likely not want to drive down there with wipers that do not work.
Sam

Sam

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I would also be glad to share the files. I'm running Tunerstudio, V3 board, MS II.

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It's a Slant thing. Even I don't understand.

1974 Duster, EFI /6 soon to be turbo...

Get that Monkay! Get that nasty thing!!