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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:57 pm 
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TBI Slant 6
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Thanks to Shaker 223 for posting bandsawed head pics.

Image

Since I'm going sequential injection I can try to hit the back of the valves. The Siemens Deka 60# injector has a 26* cone spray pattern and videos I've seen show the diffusion starting a distance from the nozzle (1/2" maybe).

The outermost lines I drew are roughly 26* degrees, the inner pair are probably a better real world representation of what I'll see.

It looks like I may not hit the valve unless air velocity "sweeps" the charge significantly.

The alternative is to back the injector up the runner and fog the head.

Any and all comments are valuable to me.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:12 pm 
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It seems that either way ill be spraying the runner, so maybe hitting the higher temperature head will be better for atomization.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:32 pm 
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Quote:
It seems that either way ill be spraying the runner, so maybe hitting the higher temperature head will be better for atomization.
Sounds good to me.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:40 pm 
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High-end experts like turbocharging guru Ken Duttweiler and EFI University's Ben Strader have spent countless hours on the dyno and in the lab playing with fuel-injector location and angle. There are several observable trends from this research, but in the end, any individual engine may deviate from theory or previously observed trends, so the following should be taken as only a baseline recommendation, as your outcome may vary.

Basically, there are three factors that have to be juggled: idle quality (which would also include emissions in an OEM smog-legal application), proper fuel/air atomization, and the physical constraints of the engine and intake-manifold configuration. These factors combine to determine injector location and angle within the intake manifold's inlet runner.

In a perfect world, nozzle location should be as parallel to the airflow stream as possible. The nozzle angle in relation to the airflow stream is termed the "intercept angle." According to Strader, the intercept angle should "not be more than 45 degrees, although it can be less." Maintaining the proper intercept angle generally helps low-speed driveability and may also improve performance throughout the engine's operating band. The lower the inlet airspeed at idle, the more critical it is to maintain the ideal intercept angle. Idle vacuum correlates well with inlet airspeed-if you have 14-18 inches Hg of vacuum at idle as read on a vacuum gauge, maintaining the proper intercept angle is not as much of an issue in terms of driveability, although there still could be some emissions ramifications.

So much for injector angle-what about injector placement? Should it be closer to the valve (downstream, near the cylinder head) or closer to the air meter (upstream, toward the top of the inlet runner)? It depends on the engine and application. A stocker is primarily concerned with idle quality, low emissions, fuel mileage, and engine-compartment packaging constraints. On a stocker, fuel-injector capacity (rated in lb/hr) is low (compared with a race engine), while inlet-runner velocity and low-speed vacuum are high. The small-capacity nozzle develops a good spray pattern that disperses uniformly within the incoming air stream. With good atomization, the nozzle can be located downstream, close to the valve. Small injectors don't have a lot of fuel to waste, so targeting the spray toward the back side of the valve ensures that the available fuel is used most efficiently. On the other hand, in theory, high-idle vacuum generated by mild stock engines permits placing the injector farther upstream without significant low-speed driveability degradation. In the end, OEM-style downstream injector placement simplifies system packaging and makes it easier to mount the fuel rails.

Everything changes with really large injectors (over 96 lb/hr). High-capacity injectors generate a relatively poor spray pattern with a large fuel-droplet size. As Duttweiler puts it: "You're practically just spraying raw liquid. If you put a big injector too close to the valve, there's not enough time for the fuel to mix with the air." Large injectors would most likely be used in large-displacement or high-rpm engines with lumpy cams. High rpm translates into less time between injector firing pulses, lumpy cams generate poor vacuum, and the typically large-volume inlet runners needed to feed all those cubes generally mean lower air velocity downstairs. Obviously, all this adversely affects proper fuel atomization. Moving the injector farther away from the valve allows more time for the air/fuel to atomize properly and remain in suspension when air velocity comes up at high rpm. This should improve peak power but-because of poor low-rpm velocity-at the expense of idle quality (there's no free lunch).

Looking at some real-world examples, Strader reports that on a 1,000hp engine, the injectors were originally located 7 inches back from the valves. Doubling this distance to 14 inches was worth 50 hp on top, a 5 percent gain-but "it wouldn't idle below 1,600 rpm." For an even more extreme example, consider the injector placement on today's 15,000-rpm Formula I engines. The injectors, wiring harness, and fuel-distribution rails are located topside, even inside the manifold plenum area, so they can maintain the proper intercept angle.

In the real world, mass-produced aftermarket cast-aluminum manifolds have the bosses added as an afterthought to a preexisting design. The placement is more for convenience than for best engineering practice-the available packaging architecture (including fuel-rail mounting and clearance) to a large extent dictates the nozzle location. A decent compromise for a hot-rod engine is to locate the nozzle about 1-2 inches upstream from the manifold flange to give atomization a chance, positioning the fuel rail at the best angle you can get away with and still package the harness and fuel rails. As Duttweiler puts it: "If you aim the injector more toward the valve, the fuel rail usually hits the plenum" on a converted classic V-8 carburetor-style intake. Note that at the OEM level, the trend on today's new-tech V-8 engine designs is to make them wider than a similar-displacement, old-school, classic engine. The included valve angle in some of the new late-models is nearly straight up and down in relation to the bore. That means the runners are also near vertical, which in turn allows mounting the injectors more vertically to provide room for the fuel rails and wiring harness while still maintaining a good intercept angle to the runner.
Good info in the above. Placement and angle will all depend on what you are doing with the motor. All out drag or street driving where idle will be critical.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:49 am 
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Thanks for the article, Tom. I've read it several times and I think I'll have to just plunge in.
If I consider a few phrases in an attempt to identify my application, like:
...Large injectors, over 90#...
...1000 HP motor....
...15000 RPM...

vs

...stocker...
...high idle vacuum...

I'm left with no real clear performance recommendation other than intercept angle and packaging constraints.

So if I endeavor to establish optimum intercept angle the bung moves farther downstream so my rail will comfortably clear the TB.
My hope is that the Deka atomizes well at short duration and or the stream hits hot enough surfaces to meaningfully assist atomization.

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1960 Seneca 225 turbo soon to be EFI


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:16 am 
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Targeting the valve is a good thing, but it's also not something to pull your hair out if there isn't a good way to get the injector to spray onto the valve. Usually the acceleration enrichment tuning can compensate for the extra fuel sticking to the runners or ports.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:47 am 
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Way over my head but I would check out the Chrysler 2.2 and 2.5 turbo cars as a guideline. :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:20 am 
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EFI Slant 6
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You are not going to hit the valve anyway as the valve is so deep into the port. I would shoot for a 45 off the intake runner as close to the flange as practical. Makes it EZ to get fuel rail clearance. With the low RPM's we run (compared to F1) and the flexibility of EFI, it can compensate on the fly for slight variations on head temp/ratio/inlet temp. F1 injectors are located right at the ram air horn inlets, 6-8 inches from the valve. Looks like a fog at RPM up there.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:39 am 
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Like Matt said..........
Just remember where your carb. was, you are going to see alot of improvement.
Will


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