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MandarinaRacing
PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 3:36 pm 
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Greetings fellow inliners, refugge member of FordSix.com, thought I drop by and seek your opinion on this matter.....

I've found two articles on the web ( article 1 , article 2 ) that claim that honing is not required on a re-ring job using cast iron rings, and that there's no such thing as "deglazing" a cylinder bore....
they claim
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when you scuff up a perfectly good smooth cylinder with a rude sort of carborundum device, you are in fact only putting scratches on it, giving us a new, larger diameter at their base - sort of like root and pitch diameters in a nut, say. And when you put it back together, the new rings and this rough surface proceed to grind each other down until smoothness is re-attained. By this time, needless to say, you have larger ring gaps, due to more ring wear, and more piston clearance, since the cylinder has been taken down now to the base diameter of the honing scratches. And the valuable metal so removed has been converted into grinding compound circulating in your oil, so you have also reduced the size of your piston, and contributed significantly to wear of all the other parts as well....Although it is true that *chrome* rings are so hard and smooth that it can take from a long time to forever for the cylinder to wear them to perfect fit, this is *not* the case for Cast Iron rings. In fact, that's the secret. Chrome rings only in rough (honed) bores. And hone bores only when you have to, ie as the final "finish" of a bore job. Since the boring bar tool in effect runs a screw thread down the bore in its journey toward the land of largerness, it is necessary to do a final "polish" with a somewhat cruder tool - the hone. This is the *only* reason to put a hone in a cylinder. And when it's done, the machinist has purposely left some extra meat in there for the hone to finish to final diameter. And the final diameter is a tad small as well, in anticipation of the initially rapid wear that is inevitable as the new rings and the scratchy bore get acquainted. This is also the reason for very careful cleaning of said bores before assembly, and for very frequent oil and filter changes, until the motor has stopped manufacturing grinding compound during the break-in process....
although the article sounds very interesting I'm very skeptical to try something like this (I'm in the middle of a re-ring job), but just wanted to know if anyone here had heard of this.....

Thanks....and keep it inline!

Alex
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steponmebbbboom
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:35 pm 
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that is absolute bunk...

If you install new piston rings without honing the cylinders, they will not seat properly as there is nothing to abrade them and 'lap' them to the cylinder walls, this will cause them to burn oil and pass excessive blowby.

My guess is whatever person wrote this article honed the cylinders on a rebuild and didnt wipe the walls clean enough, causing excessive wear. If you do hone the cylinders, Mandarina, get those cylinders as clean as possible. When youre done you should be able to scrub the walls with a clean white Tshirt without staining it.

My personal opinion of cast iron rings is about the same as Wal-mart, in that cast iron rings are cheap and dont last nearly as long as chrome rings. And the diameter you lose from the peaks of said "scratches" could barely be measured with a micrometer. Tolerances specified during overhaul are meant to take the small losses of metal during break-in into account and as long as you change the oil early the first time, and observe the break-in instructions (read: be gentle) the wear after break in will be infinitesimal for the first 80,000 miles or so.

after reading that article all I can say is *wow* lol. I have never met a good rebuilder that didn't hone cylinders as standard practice. It is a crucial step necessary to seat piston rings and create a proper seal.

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Mike@68Dart
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 5:34 pm 
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I believe that the re- bore should be like .002 less than the desired finish bore size to allow for honing. So a .030 over bore would be like .028 and then honed....I may be forgetting a zero here...or there

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Pierre
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 5:41 pm 
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I'm by far an expert on this but I believe the purpose of honing isn't solely to make sure the finish on the cylinder walls is correct, but that the bore is a true circle and not oval.

Oops that should be NOT by far... :oops:


Last edited by Pierre on Sun Dec 14, 2003 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Doctor Dodge
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 7:19 pm 
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Honing allow you to get to the finish bore size while controlling size, roundness straightness and surface finish. A knowledgable machinist with the proper honing equipment (Sunnen CK10) can do wonders.

In this case of a "re-ring" job, I feel that the "break the glaze" honing is to "hold" some oil on the cylinder walls and allow some controlled wear needed for proper ring seating.

I have always thought that honing for a re-ring job should be kept to a minimum and be of a fine, rather then course finish. (Because there is already some wear and honing just makes for more.)
To do a light "home job", you need a good hone, a 3 shoe, stone type hone with fine grit stones or just have a machine shop do the job on their CK10. I feel that those "dingle-ball" type hones can be very aggressive and leave deep scratches in the cylinder walls.

Truth is that I have lightly "honed" bores for re-ring jobs by hand, using 320 grit wet/dry sandpaper, WD-40 and a nice cross-hatch motion. I never had any problem with the rings quickly seating using that method.
This applies to a SL6 which we all know is pretty foregiving)
DD
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Eric W
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 7:32 pm 
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I agree, that is bunk. When I did a re-ring on my old 400 many years ago, I used the three shoe type hone as the good Dr. described with 220 grit stones. Four or five strokes is all I did to clean up (stock bore) the cylinders and get the 60 degree cross hatch pattern. I used cast iron ring also. At around 80K miles, I replaced the heads due to an exhaust valve burning, and found I still had some of the cross hatch in the cylinders. Never burned a drop of oil.
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MitchB
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 7:06 am 
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I would bet you could get good ring seal with just a re-ring alone. But you would have to have round cylinders, little to no taper, no irregularities, no scratches or scuffing... and you would be using cast iron rings, not moly which last longer. If the bores look good and are within spec, then try it. I would. However, if the bores are either out of spec or need to be refinished, then use a hone. The most important point is to finish the bores with a soft hone. This knocks off the high spots which will abrade the rings. Ford uses this process on assembly of their 4.6 and 5.4 V8 engines. There is a Sunnen hone specific for this use. I have the part number buried somewhere... But basically this finishing hone is very fine and looks like a tooth brush. It leaves the bores very ring friendly. Any competent machinest should know about this. So if the cylinder bores look good, I would try a re-ring alone. But if you have to hone, finish it with a soft hone. And of course, you will be able to thoroughly clean the block after the process?

Mitch
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Morrow
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:24 pm 
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<< machinist
honing is boring, but simply uses a 2 point contact, 1 cutting point (like a tripod)
honing takes a lot longer, but is more accurate.
with today's boring bars and jig bore machines, honing is not necessary.

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83Ram150dude
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 6:28 pm 
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<< machinist
honing is boring, but simply uses a 2 point contact, 1 cutting point (like a tripod)
honing takes a lot longer, but is more accurate.
with today's boring bars and jig bore machines, honing is not necessary.
I beg to differ. The honing operation is designed to take the natural srew-type finish out of the bore after the boring process, and replace it with a more uniform crosshatch pattern, which is designed to both seat the rings and hold oil for better ring sealing. It is a final finish machine operation, not a boring operation. Standard textbook auto machine shop 101.

Granted there are different degrees of crosshatch patterns depending on the grit of stones used, but the type of stone and grit mainly depends on the type of piston rings used. The standard 3 stone 220 grit is most widely used for cast rings, and as such is commonly available.

Any article on the web that states otherwise is written by someone not knowledgeble in the subject and should be avoided. Unless you want to do the re-ring job over again in a 1000 miles or so......

If this was not the case, why then would this be the standard thing to do for the past 100 or so years the internal combustion engine has been around?

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Morrow
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 8:43 pm 
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yeah man, honing is necessary on your auto shop "machinist" $2,000 bridgeport. but when you get into $200,000 jig-bore machines which a lot of boring companies use, honing is simply a waste of time, because the machines themselves are so accurate, along with their current boring bars and equipment to give a glass like finish.
also honing has nothing over ID grinding.
thats prototype machinist 101

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83Ram150dude
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:58 am 
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yeah man, honing is necessary on your auto shop "machinist" $2,000 bridgeport. but when you get into $200,000 jig-bore machines which a lot of boring companies use, honing is simply a waste of time, because the machines themselves are so accurate, along with their current boring bars and equipment to give a glass like finish.
also honing has nothing over ID grinding.
thats prototype machinist 101
Ok that may be the case with prototype machining, but has anyone ever known any automotive machine shop to invest 200 grand into any equipment, with the exception of Nascar shops? 99.9% of all auto machine shops use a standard boring bar, not jig-bore machines, due to the cost of the equipment. Do you know how many engines they would have to bore to recoup their cost of the equipment?

While the method that you state is more accurate, how hard is it to locate someone who machines engines using the equipment? And then, what would the cost of machining be? Most shops I have dealt with in the past charge on a per cylinder basis, generally in the $5-$15 per hole range. If it cost anymore than that, t wouldn't be cost effective to save the block. It would be cheaper in the end to get a new block (if available) than to rebore the old one using the methid you suggest, figuring in the cost of all other standard machining procedures required for the block (line boring, honing, decking, magnafluxing, hot-tanking, and for the extreme...sonic checking).

BTW.....if you know of where I can get a Bridgeport for $2000 let me know, I have friends in the industrial machine business that would love a deal like that......

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Morrow
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:28 pm 
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um dude, have you ever been to a car show/swap meet? theres people there all the time showing their products they machine and sell. as a matter of fact the last car show i went to, a guy what showing the products he made, and are relatively cheap due to it was done on a horizontal mill. he was offering to bore engines, and you just have to bring them in, it would be a quick process. fast process = cheaper parts when you have a lot of backorder.
also about the bridgeport, clearly you dont know what your talking about. look on ebay find bridgeports that sell for under 2,000. or look in your local newspaper, they are everywhere. i bought mine for $800 in great condition. also local colleges with machining programs auction them off a lot for dirt cheap. heres a website i used to buy from, they sell a TOOLROOM bridgeport (since you obviously claim to know everything, you should know what a toolroom machine is) look at the price, free shipping, new off the shelf:
http://www.toolsplus1.com/1649-3949.htm

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mpgFanatic
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:25 pm 
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um dude, [...], clearly you dont know what your talking about. [...] (since you obviously claim to know everything,
My goodness, we got some sour grapes here? Whassa matter, somebody other than you has some expertise? Good grief, you're as bad as you claim he is. :?

Relax, my friend. You both obviously have knowledge, perhaps even in similar areas. It seems clear you were interpreting different things, as opposed to contradicting each other. That's hardly a reason to get snippy.

As far as Bridgeports being under $2k, I'd have to suspect ya get what you pay for. Maybe one of you is talking about a well-used machine and the other is hoping to find a nearly-new specimen? Have you considered asking for clarity, instead of sticking out your tongue and spitting raspberries at each other? Generally, we all go a much longer way when consideration is involved. :wink:

Thanks for helping us keep this a professional environment in which so many of us enjoy participating.

- Erik

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83Ram150dude
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:19 pm 
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Thanks mpgfanatic, glad to see someone else can have an opinion and express it without being shot down in flames for having one.....

Morrow, I never claimed to be an expert machinist, but I have been in the automotive field for many years and do know what the standard of the industry has been for years. It works, is just as accurate for the required end result, so why the big beef? State of the art multi billion dollar machines are not always better, just more expensive. As far as Bridgeports go, I thought we were comparing new machines to new machines, not used to new. You could probably get a Bridgeport for free if you knew where to look, but how much would it cost to overhaul it back to accurate and usable condition?

If its free why does it cost so much? :shock:


And yes, I have been to many car shows, have seen lots of "vendors" selling machined parts, but to be honest, you get what you pay for. If you never heard of the guy before, and you have a problem down the road, where do you find him again? Especially if its someone working out of their garage at home. What kind of quality work was done? You can't tell unless you brought your toolbox of micrometers and borescopes and calipers with you, and even then how do you know the part isnt cracked to start with without magnafluxing equipment handy? No thanks. Personally, I'd rather take the part to a shop I know and a guy that I've worked with before, knowing what kind of quality work they do, not some guy at a car show I'm probably never going to see again.

Getting back to the original post, if you're doing a ring job without boring the cylinders, then yes, hone the cylinders with a 3 stone hone, clean the hone dust out and go ahead with the re-ring job. Being a slant, you'll get another 300k out of it no problem...... :D

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Morrow
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:42 pm 
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ok obviously you didnt read my post clearly. i said i bought a bridgeport for $800 and it is in great condition. that means it is accurate, about as accurate as a bridgeport can be. brigeports used that are over 1 grand are almost always in good running and accurate order. im sure as you know mr. expert, bridgeports are a very simple machine, not a lot to break. if you want a complete reground ways overhaul, only a few hundred bucks and your back in order. you only need to do that on an old rusted bad condition bridgeport, that i wouldent pay more than $100 to begin with.
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Getting back to the original post, if you're doing a ring job without boring the cylinders, then yes, hone the cylinders with a 3 stone hone, clean the hone dust out and go ahead with the re-ring job
once again you show your lack of experience. you cant start honing a raw engine before you bore. you would wear out too many honing stones. even if you are using a 3 stone hone. honing and reaming do not give true location, just true roundness.

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