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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:04 pm 
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3 Deuce Weber

Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:52 pm
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Car Model: 1975 Plymouth Duster
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Gotcha. If the oiling in the engine was that bad, then I wouldn't give another thought to the old pump or the gear on it. I've put something like 60,000 miles on a Melling M66C driven by an aftermarket camshaft (from a good manufacturer), including hundreds of hours of hard laps on a road course. If Hughes knows how to properly cut the oil pump drive gear on the camshaft, you'll be fine.
Quote:
You need to double check the deck clearance? Top of piston to top of the block should be in the .140-.200 range unless someone cut a bunch off the block. If it is really a couple thousands that will make a huge difference in what you can take off the head.
What he said. If the engine was stock before, you should have a lot more space than that.

You can usually take up to 0.100" off a stock, uncut head, and more than that off the block, but you really need to know what you're starting out with on both sides. Otherwise your final SCR will be a total shot in the dark. Since the short block is already disassembled and you're not looking for a huge increase in SCR, I'd recommend waiting until you get the block back from the machine shop and checking the final deck height with one of your new pistons installed. (If you needed to increase your SCR so much that it required cutting a significant amount off the block AND head, then I'd reassemble one old piston/rod assembly into the block with your crank, and start with that measurement.)

Meanwhile, clean up all the combustion chambers in the head really well (I like Scotchbrite for this kind of thing) and measure their volumes with a combustion chamber measuring kit. The valves will need to be installed for this. A simple kit like this is all you need, so if you have a scrap of lexan and a 60 cc syringe you can save yourself $25. An uncut Slant 6 cylinder head will probably be somewhere in the 55-60 cc range for each cylinder. Use the average of all six for the following calculations; hopefully there's no more than a couple cc variation between cylinders.

Enter the above info, along with your final bore (3.460"), your stroke (4.125" for a 225), and typical numbers for a standard head gasket (3.5" bore diameter and ~0.040" compressed thickness) and plug them into a compression ratio calculator like this one. Piston dome volume is zero for flat pistons. This will give you your SCR before cutting the head. Play with the combustion chamber volume until you get the SCR you want (8.5 or whatever someone like Lou/Dart270 tells you to shoot for after looking at your camshaft specs). Take that difference in ccs and multiply it by 0.0067". That's how much you need to mill your head.



If all that is too much work and you're certain that both the block and head are uncut (you can check the block to see if the stamped numbers on the pad behind the alternator bracket are still there), then cut 0.060" off the head and be done with it. That'll probably get you into the 8.5-9 range, depending on manufacturing tolerances at Chrysler the week that engine came off the line.
Well, it's been five months since the engine was taken apart - I only started working on it again about a month ago. Given the state it was in I'm reasonably sure the engine has never been apart, at least not further than giving it a new water pump - it was the only part that still looked like metal. I'm taking an ASE certification course set so the school shop has almost everything I need, aside from stuff for actually machining the block. I'll see if I can get a displacement measuring kit, or at the very least they've got bore gauges I can use to measure it.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:58 am 
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Piston-to-deck clearance was minimal, probably only a couple thousandths before I tore it apart.
A 170 engine would have a minimal deck clearance (.000-.020), but 1969 was the last year for the 170 engine.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:51 am 
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The combustion chamber kit I mentioned doesn't have anything to do with the cylinder bore. It's for measuring the combustion chamber volume on the head side. (The bold red words in my post are hyperlinks, fyi)

See picture below. You can put a thin layer of grease around the outside before slapping the plastic down; this helps keep the water where it belongs. You start with a known volume in the syringe, fill up the combustion chamber through the hole in the plastic, and the answer is your starting syringe volume minus what's left in the syringe when you're done.

Image

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:29 pm 
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3 Deuce Weber

Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:52 pm
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Car Model: 1975 Plymouth Duster
So I've now discovered that someone had the bottom end of the engine apart relatively recently - it had new bearings in it, and the crank was turned to 10 under, which could be why it was only intermittently knocking when I first started driving the car. It's possible that they put it up on a lift and just dropped the crank out, but now I've got no idea what else has been done to this engine. I was getting 120psi maximum for compression, but the rings were shot and the valve seats were burned. I have no idea what this engine will actually be capable of when I put it back together. I'll see if I can get one of those cylinder head displacement measuring kits - it's supposed to be getting machined this weekend but it's not like I can't just pull the head at a later date and have it decked. I was going to eventually do a V8 swap in this car but I've spent so much money getting the /6 running again that I may as well keep it in, so I may go for a higher-performance cam as well. Was thinking of the Aussiespeed smaller tubular headers and the Offenhauser 5270LK for the intake. Any way I rebuild this thing, it's gonna take me six months at minimum.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:36 am 
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Quote:
it had new bearings in it, and the crank was turned to 10 under, which could be why it was only intermittently knocking when I first started driving the car.
Did you find a bad bearing? Having it .010 would have nothing to do with the knock if the correct bearings were installed.
Quote:
but it's not like I can't just pull the head at a later date and have it decked.
Just wait till the machining is done and install one piston assembly and measure the volume and get the head cut to what you need. No use to assemble and disassemble an engine and assemble again?? Unless you enjoy doing extra work!! :D :D

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:24 am 
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You do not need to measure volume with liquid for the piston-deck region. Simply put 1 piston/rod in as Rick says, then put it at top dead center (TDC), then measure the distance from the top deck to the top of the piston with a dial caliper (with bottom "foot"). You can easily compute volume from that and the bore size.

Lou

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:39 am 
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And if you don't have a caliper, lay a stack of feeler gauges on the piston until they are level with the deck. Not as easy but it will get you close.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:23 pm 
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3 Deuce Weber

Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:52 pm
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Car Model: 1975 Plymouth Duster
Quote:
Quote:
it had new bearings in it, and the crank was turned to 10 under, which could be why it was only intermittently knocking when I first started driving the car.
Did you find a bad bearing? Having it .010 would have nothing to do with the knock if the correct bearings were installed.
Quote:
but it's not like I can't just pull the head at a later date and have it decked.
Just wait till the machining is done and install one piston assembly and measure the volume and get the head cut to what you need. No use to assemble and disassemble an engine and assemble again?? Unless you enjoy doing extra work!! :D :D
1. Yes, I know having it turned to .10 under wouldn't be the issue - but it tells me that the bottom end has probably had problems before, and it's most likely due to that wrecked oil pump (which appears to be original to the engine, and the source of the main oil splatter on it).

2. That's what I planned to do. I've pressed the old pistons out of the rods, but unfortunately didn't get around to hanging and aligning the new pistons before the quarter ended, so that's getting done at a machine shop. After I get everything machined and bored out, I can measure piston-to-deck clearance.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:54 am 
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Cool!

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:32 am 
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3 Deuce Weber

Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:52 pm
Posts: 81
Car Model: 1975 Plymouth Duster
How much power do you guys think I'll get out of it in the end, with, say, this cam: http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/prod ... rtid=31100 ?

I'm hoping for around 300 after the new headers, intake, ignition, etc. Am I in that ballpark?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:21 am 
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I am sorry, but a 300 HP Slant 6 is a full race engine with high compression, much bigger cam than the Hughes you mention, 4 barrel carb, and mainly a large valve well ported head. This will cost you some money. I would guess you will be closer to 200 HP than 300.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:27 am 
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Supercharged

Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 11:50 pm
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Car Model: 64 Plymouth Valiant
Think in TQ not HP with the long stroke slants...………….

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:43 am 
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Thanks for posting that link to the Hughes cams. I see they have several grinds. That one is not aggressive. You can use it with a stock or mild stall converter, but I would not expect to get more than 200 HP, assuming you have a decently ported head. 200 HP in a car like yours will net something like mid 15s in the 1/4 mile, which is a good streetable number for these engines and it feels zippy on the street. Focus on good head porting and larger valves if you want to make power. If you can afford a 2600-3000 RPM stall converter, then get the 220/224 Hughes cam (if you want to stay with Hughes). I do not know if anyone has tried these who is a serious Slant enthusiast.

Lou

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:24 am 
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3 Deuce Weber

Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:52 pm
Posts: 81
Car Model: 1975 Plymouth Duster
Quote:
Thanks for posting that link to the Hughes cams. I see they have several grinds. That one is not aggressive. You can use it with a stock or mild stall converter, but I would not expect to get more than 200 HP, assuming you have a decently ported head. 200 HP in a car like yours will net something like mid 15s in the 1/4 mile, which is a good streetable number for these engines and it feels zippy on the street. Focus on good head porting and larger valves if you want to make power. If you can afford a 2600-3000 RPM stall converter, then get the 220/224 Hughes cam (if you want to stay with Hughes). I do not know if anyone has tried these who is a serious Slant enthusiast.

Lou
My problem with the stall converters is that I can't find one that has the starter gear mounted to it. There's only one that I've seen that does. Is there a way of buying the gear separately and bolting it to the converter?

Edit: The head is getting ported and I'm going to try for 10.5:1 compression when everything is done, but like I said, I can't measure until it's back from the machine shop and assembled. It's going to have the offenhauser intake off of Summit Racing (what would be a good 4bbl for this engine?) and the small tubular headers off of Aussiespeed.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:32 pm 
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Alright, I'm trying to do a budget rebuild of my Duster's slant 6 and I'm trying to do it for a reasonable amount of money.
Quote:
It's going to have the offenhauser intake off of Summit Racing (what would be a good 4bbl for this engine?) and the small tubular headers off of Aussiespeed.
I thought this was going to be a "Budget" build. You are way out of that realm. Just on intake, carb, and headers, you are close to $1500

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