Hi All
I'm in need of some experience and wisdom...
I finally got around to installing a 2x1 offy manifold onto my dart. Carbs are 1920's and everything else is stock. I got the car running tonight, but when I put it into gear the revs drop down a lot and the car shakes, quite a lot! Then when I press down the gas pedal, it will suddenly take off, with not much at all inbetween stop and go go go.

I think its fair to say I have screwed up (bad pun) the fuel mixtures. I have each screw turned out 2 complete turns (that is where it rev'd up the most) when screwing them out which is what the piece of paper I got with the linkages indicated to do. I dont have the chokes connected but did let the engine warm up before driving. I am using the original rod linkages, kickdown is intact and I used the offy linkage kit that keeps the original accerator rod with the end cut off.

Can somebody else with an offy 2x1, 1920's on a stock motor let me know if 2 complete turns out, per carb, is in the ball park? Any advise would be appreciated.
thankyou
ricki

_________________
65 Dart GT Convertible
http://www.displacedkiwi.com (click on /other then the dart icon, then whatever you want!)

Hey there

I ain't have the duals but it seems to me by your description that you may need to adjust the "needle" as you already know/suspect. I would start from 1 turn out each prolly to go to 1 and 1/2 turn.

Also, since you've eliminated crosspulsing, and the engine is pulling better with no dead cycles on the carb, I would advance the timing some deg's.

can you keep me posted on this? I still trying to decide if I'm going with a 350 CFM holley or with this setup.

Also if you have any pics of the linkages (especially kickdown and throttle) I would greatly appreciate if you post them.

Thanks.

_________________
Juan Ignacio Caino

Please use e-mail button istead of PM'ing. I do log in sometimes but I'll be answering quicker thru e-mail.

Thanks Juan
I'll try it again this weekend and arm myself with a timing light and an extra set of hands. I live in a condo with those dont work on your car rules. I seem to get away with it as everybody else has a modern car and they seem to like the dart (they dont understand why I choose to drive an older car, but hey, if they dont complain its ok by me!). I posted as I wanted to try and cheat by getting somebody elses setup to copy, so I can leave the garage without squealing the tires (its not the darts power as much as polished concrete!).
I will post some pics and thoughts on the setup when I am done. My accelerator is the rod type and I think your car will be a cable setup so it will may be a little different for you.
cheers
ricki

_________________
65 Dart GT Convertible
http://www.displacedkiwi.com (click on /other then the dart icon, then whatever you want!)

I've done a li'l research. we had an argentinian version of a 65 dart with dat very same setup. jetted 52 on each carb. intake was alum and was the mightiest of all those /6 even to the deadline in '79. Claimed to get 180 HP outta the thing... I figure it might be SAE not DIN but anyway the most powerful 6 cyl car by those days and to the late '80s

_________________
Juan Ignacio Caino

Please use e-mail button istead of PM'ing. I do log in sometimes but I'll be answering quicker thru e-mail.

Here's what mine looks like. Sounds like you might have a vacuum leak? There's a big hole right under the word "Offenhauser" s that looks like it's nothing, but it actually draws vacuum. Also - I'm still trying to get mine to idle right as well - mine idles WAY TOO FAST with the air screws "properly" set - so I had to lean 'em down to where they are almost all the way in. Offy says to plug the "automatic choke air bleed" (in the base of the carb).

I tried, but it appears that I didn't do it right - even with the idle speed set as slow as it will go - the motor still wants to idles super fast.

Here's a quote from "Carter Carburators" by Dave Emmanuel (SA, 2002):
http://thomasonlegal.com/photos/IMAG0051.JPG

http://thomasonlegal.com/photos/IMAG0050.JPG

Note also that based on advice from this board - I am soon re-routing my fuel lines so they won't be right over the HOT headers!

_________________
1963 Dodge Dart, motor by Doug Dutra, Offenhauser two carb intake, Pertronix, Clifford 6x2, Flowmaster 40's, Erson RV15/295 RDP, head work. Addco anti-sway bar, urethane suspension bushings, KYB's, racing leafs, SSBC discs. Need ZDDP? Get STP.

Increased idle airflow is the most likely cause of you problem.
Check to see if the throttle blades close completely at idle.

Also check the ported vacuum signal, that could be pulling in the vacuum advance, making for way to much timing advance at idle. This would also account for the major idle speed drop when put in gear. (vacuum advance comes off when the RPMs drop)

I had to use an adjustable vacuum advance 'pod' and set the spring stiff to prevent the vacuum advance from coming in at idle speeds on my Proline dual Webber set-up.
DD

Thankyou for the suggestions, I am well on the way now to getting it sorted out... I spent the afternoon tuning and some driving around
First I double checked/tightened all nuts and bolts on the manifolds/carbs and put in new vacuum tubing. Timing was the initial problem, it was advanced as far as possible on the plate that holds the dizzy to the block (and was tightened by a gorilla!), so the timing was advanced at least 30 at idle. I knocked that back to just over 10, adjusted fuel mixture (a lot leaner) and idle.

Now the engine does not drop the revs as much, but when initially pressing the accelerator, it fades out, then kicks into life and off we go. I'll need to sort that out as it would be no good in start/stop traffic.

Now the questions...
I do have an exhaust leak inbetween the inlet and exhaust manifolds that I will take care of (hopefully this week) when I change over to a dutra dual front, modified super six rear manifold and a complete new exhaust system. Could the exhaust leak be the reason for the initial flat spot/die-ing when accelerating (back pressure related ??).

I have not put the little balls in the choke holes (as per dart63's post) on base of the carbs to block them off. I want to setup the chokes as I am moving to St Louis in January (brrr) and will need the chokes working. Should I put these balls in and will they interfere with actually using the chokes?

Should I still be looking at vacumm for the "dead spot"?

_________________
65 Dart GT Convertible
http://www.displacedkiwi.com (click on /other then the dart icon, then whatever you want!)

I was unable to block of the air passages in mine because the #6 lead shot offy gave me was too small. I *think* that what that air passage does is to give your engine a little extra air (which is useful when the choke is closed all the way).

But now that you have two carburators, your engine is getting twice as much air through those little holes (2 holes vs. 1).

Since you have to go to manual choke(s) anyway, the easy solution is just not to completely "choke" the engine when starting - i.e., leave a little room for air to get in the carb.

As soon as I do my carb rebuild, I'm going to block those passages on my carbs...

_________________
1963 Dodge Dart, motor by Doug Dutra, Offenhauser two carb intake, Pertronix, Clifford 6x2, Flowmaster 40's, Erson RV15/295 RDP, head work. Addco anti-sway bar, urethane suspension bushings, KYB's, racing leafs, SSBC discs. Need ZDDP? Get STP.

Hi All
Heres a quick update. I splurged for christmas and got a custom shop to install a new exhaust system for the dutra dual setup. I have been tinkering around since and have it running a lot better, not perfect, but pretty darn close. I still have a bit of an uneven idle at times and some hesitation when taking off (again not all the time). I'm pretty sure its all in the back carby?

Things I noticed about the change to this setup are:
* more power all round. From taking off, to speeding up whilst already in top gear.
* less accelerator travel and accelerator is a lot more sensitive. I really have to just feather it on
* more noise from extra intake and also from the exhaust which is considerably larger than the (worn out original sized) one that was on the car. This isnt a bad thing and its not too obnoxious.
* I can squeel the tires now (but they are 13" pizza cutters!) and every time I do I laugh and so do any passengers... its just such a turnaround from the single 1920 (which as it tuns out had the timing way to far advanced, so it may not be a completely fair comparison). Definitely more smiles per mile
* It seems to change gears faster (auto tranny). Almost immediately it goes into second. Its not a problem, just an observation. It may be that my foot is a lot heavier now!
*It looks cool!

Here are some pics I took yesterday to show the engine bay and the new exhaust. You may note that I have the front aircleaner dipped down to clear the bonnet (er hood) and I have not connected the pcv valve as I have an offy valve cover to put on the car next. I also made adapter plates to take the manifold back to singles as it had dual twin barrel rochester carbs on it when I got it, which were huge and pretty messed up. I want to keep it as "period" as possible so I put it back to 1920's which also meant I could use offys linkage kit.

warning ** these pics are high res and large
Engine bay with air cleaners http://dk.favorofareply.com/other/dart/ ... rt_012.jpg
Closeup carbs/intake/exhast without air cleaners http://dk.favorofareply.com/other/dart/ ... rt_017.jpg
Exhaust looking under car from rearhttp://dk.favorofareply.com/other/dart/ ... rt_021.jpg
For more pics goto my website http://www.displacedkiwi.com then click on "other" then on the dart icon then on (well whatever you like really) but the "+" sign beside "Photos" then "Dec 04" is where latest pics are.

Finally thanks to everyone on the list for help and advise. In addition to Doc, 63Dart and argintine-slantsixer for responding to this post. I am always checking the posts and learning things... most recently I am taking notes on the cold weather running discussion for my pending move from so cal to st louis.
ricki

_________________
65 Dart GT Convertible
http://www.displacedkiwi.com (click on /other then the dart icon, then whatever you want!)

Kiaora!

Did you use the linkage kit (Offenhauser 5041K) that Offy supplies with/for this intake, or make your own?

You can solve the reduced accelerator travell by lengthening the primary bellcrank where it comes off the primary torque rod that exits the firewall or shortening the two secondary bellcranks that operate the pushrods for each carburetor.

If your trans is upshifting faster/sooner, you need to adjust your kickdown linkage (make it longer or correct the incorrect geometry). Earlier upshifts aren't the result of a heavier foot, quite the opposite in fact -- with a properly adjusted kickdown linkage, the upshifts will occur *later*. Early upshifts are very hard on the transmission and hurt performance as well.

Looks like you haven't yet worked out the choke (prolly 'cause you live where the only way to tell it's winter is that it's dark when you get home from work...I'm freezin' my arse off, up here!). There are a number of different ways to do this; the elegant way to retain auto choke functionality is to use the stock thermostat, make your own new choke pushrod out of correct-diameter (1/8"?) brass rod to zag over to the rear carby's choke lever, and make a new choke shaft out of suitably-sized brass rod stock that extends through BOTH carbies, grinding the choke lever off one of the original choke shafts and staking or screwing it onto the new shaft. This way both chokes are synchronised and automatic. If you were using Carter BBSs instead of Holleys, you could make this new choke shaft out of a \6 pushrod, but the Holley choke shafts are smaller in diameter.

Also, please get that fuel filter AWAY from its current location perched right over the hot exhaust manifold, especially since you've chosen a plastic filter. Use the board's "search" function with keyword 30R9 to find my instructions on reworking the fuel line.

Finally, I'm curious: What jetting did you wind up with in your 1920s?
(I'm also curious: Is that the ex-Dutra '65 convertible?)

Kiaora
Thankyou for all the tips, I'll respond to each of your q & a's one by one...
Linkage kit is the offy one.

Accelerator travel, thanks, I'll look into that later on.

Tranny, cheers, I'll do this. Its the first automatic I have ever owned so its a mystery to me!

Yep, no need for a choke here, but as per above I move to St Louis in 2 weeks so I will need one asap. (After NZ I did live in Canada for 3 years before SoCal. But I was on the "warm" side, Vancouver. Great place by the way. I made it as far over as Thunder Bay, didnt make it to Toronto, but I digress, back to /6...). I will try and make new shafts to use the original auto choke, as per your advise.

Fuel lines, its on my list. I'd been reading the recent posts. I also have (which some people also dont like) a glass fuel bowl that I am going to put on the front carb.

Cant remember what the jet sizes are. I'll take a look and get back to you (wont be for 2 weeks before I take any tools to the dart now).

It not an ex Dutra mobile (AFAIK)? Maybe its an evil twin as they look almost identical, except for rims (I've seen a pic of his car on the site or his site somewhere). I got it from the Bay area, it was 100% as per factory specs. Its been repainted (back to original color) and had new front seat covers, carpet and roof (roof is black) when I got it. Otherwise it seems that everything I touch is original and either falls off or is locked solid ! I have every part that I take off the car and I have bought original replacements for any part that I modify. I've always been into originality and matching #'s and this car matches up, so I am keeping my options open. I have the original build sheet from under the back seat as well.

_________________
65 Dart GT Convertible
http://www.displacedkiwi.com (click on /other then the dart icon, then whatever you want!)

Glass fuel bowls are fun to look at, not real safe to use. Seals dry up and they leak, and if you have a crash, they can crack or break. If you absolutely cannot be persuaded it's a bad idea, put it where it belongs, down at the fuel pump outlet and NOT up above the engine. That way if it does leak or spill, it will be much farther away from heat and ignition sources and petrol will mostly spill on the ground and not on the hot engine.

Toronto's OK (I'm an American living here and waiting for Permanent Resident status), but I am f-f-f-freezing.

Dutra had two gold '65 GT convertibles for a number of years, sold one of 'em in the early-mid '90s and kept the other.

Hmm... Maybe Doc could shed some light on wether or not my car is one of his "ex's"

_________________
65 Dart GT Convertible
http://www.displacedkiwi.com (click on /other then the dart icon, then whatever you want!)

No, it's not one of my Ex-cars although it looks real close to the convert I currently have. (That last 65 convert I sold was a 4-speed car)
DD

Oh, OK. I remembered the ad, even remembered your asking price of $4200 Wish I could get some of the useless crapola out of my brain!