Well, that didn't go so well. Aaron and I tried to start the "Dartster" today and had a rough go of it. We need some help.

Here's a quick run-down:
Completely rebuilt 225 slant six (everything)
0.030 over, 264S COMP Cam
originally electronic ignition, not converted
new ECU, new voltage regulator
converted 1bbl to 2bbl Super Six
rebuilt Carter BBD
new oil pump
new fuel pump
new water pump

I am detailing the instrument cluster, so we haven't put it back in. We by-passed the ammeter by bolting the red and black leads together temporarily (yes, I also taped them). As far as I know, everything else is wired up correctly. The only wires not re-connected are for the A/C system and the seatbelts. Cylinder #1 at TDC on compression stroke, and distributor rotor lined up with #1 plug wire.

We installed a mechanical gauge to monitor the oil pressure. We began with the cooling system full of water, engine with 4 quarts, tranny with 4 quarts, and power steering full. Fuel line is hanging into gas can temporarily. Engine is grounded to firewall, and small wire on negative battery cable is grounded to radiator support.

When crossing solenoid terminals to engage starter:

A. No spark
B. No fuel pumping to carb
C. Oil pressure about 40 psi
D. Water drawn down in radiator (refilled)

A few questions:

A. The car is up on stands with the tranny in neutral. Does it have to be in park to start?

B. Does seatbelt interlock have to be defeated some way to start?

C. What would prevent new mechanical fuel pump from pumping?

D. Should oil be squirting from rocker arms with only starter turning engine, or does it need to be running at a higher rpm?

Any suggestions are welcome,
Jerry

_________________
There's a difference between ignorance and stupidity.
Ignorance is not knowing any better.
Stupidity is knowing, yet doing it anyway.

I think you can just unplug the seatbelt interlock, or maybe short the leads together. Neutral is fine.

Ballast OK? ECU tested and working? Reluctor gap in dist set?

"New" parts do not necessarily work. Pump could be bad outta the box, so try the old one. Also, if enough play in the bolts/holes, it may not be getting enough contact w/ cam eccentric? Try loosening bolts, pushing down on pump, and retightening bolts.

40psi oil P is great for cranking. You won't see oil to rockers for MANY revs, so that is probably fine. I always douse my rocker/valve assy w/ oil before cranking 1st time.

Infinite other possibilities, but see where you get w/ these ideas...

Lou

_________________
Home of Slant6-powered fun machines since 1988

I'd doublecheck the wiring. You said you're not getting any spark at the plugs, so I'd trace the problem back. Doublecheck the wiring to your alternator, make sure you didn't hook the two smaller wires up to the wrong connections on it.

Seatbelt interlock and neutral safety switch have given me fits. When you say "no spark" does that mean at the plug, or distributor, or that it just won't start?

Did you make sure those ground wires had some bare metal to ground to? The ECU should also have some bare metal as a ground if I'm not mistaken.

Lots of little possibilities, but probably something that is an easy fix. Almost there!

_________________
Rob

I’m Mater
The Kentucky Poser

Are any of you VERY FAMILIAR with this '74 Dart willing to send me a phone number so I can pick your brain while we are there working through this problem? We are going to be killing a lot of precious time, trying this - trying that, and posting results to wait for possible replies. I don't want to waste a lot of your time with stupid questions. I would like to ask very specific questions and talk through them while the car is right there in front of me. If so, please PM or e-mail a phone number to me.

Would greatly appreciate any help,
Jerry jnl@vvm.com

_________________
There's a difference between ignorance and stupidity.
Ignorance is not knowing any better.
Stupidity is knowing, yet doing it anyway.

The unplugged seatbelt wires should permit the car to start. The interlock was, I believe, on the starter circuit, not on the ignition (unbuckled belts caused the engine not to crank, rather than causing it to crank but not run). If you're not sure, press the red override button on the seatbelt interlock relay at the rear of the driver's side of the engine bay. This button was provided to give a one-time unbelted startup, for emergency or mechanic-under-the-hood purposes.
And then distributor body turned a tetch counterclockwise to provide initial advance, right?
You won't see a spark if all you're doing is arcing the starter. The ignition switch would have to be in the "On" position for you to get a spark.

Assuming you cranked long enough to pull fuel up from the tank -- this can take awhile, the new fuel pump may defective, OR installed improperly (arm under camshaft instead of over it -- usually this breaks parts the first time you try to crank it, but not always. OR, you may have an air leak or internal obstruction in the flex hose or in the fuel line on the suction side of the pump. Remove the hose from the pump's inlet fitting, put your finger over the pump's inlet fitting, and crank the engine. You should feel suction, not alternating with pressure. If you do, then find the obstruction or air leak (or check the tank -- maybe it's empty!). If the pump passes the suction test and you have fuel in the tank, remove the line from the output fitting, put your finger over the pump's output fitting and crank the engine. You should feel pressure not alternating with suction.

40psi is excellent on the oil pressure; no problems there.
No. Park or Neutral. And the interlock is on the starter circuit, not the ignition circuit.

Well, I can now finally report that the "Dartster" lives again. After our initial set-back, Aaron and I regrouped and took another stab at it.

I guess it was primarily my misunderstanding of what someone had said about by-passing the ammeter, that I thought we could leave the instrument cluster out completely. Of course, no instrument cluster also means no functional ignition switch. I plugged in the cluster, attached the ammeter leads, and turned on the ignition switch.

Finally, after almost two and a half years since pulling this engine out, it breathed its first signs of life. It fired up and ran roughly, but now my concern is that I'm not sure it is getting oil up to the rocker arms.

Tell me what I should expect to see if the engine is idling with the valve cover off. I was expecting to see oil slopping everywhere. Not so. I only ran the engine a few time for only a few seconds to check for fuel distribution and for oil pressure with the mechanical gauge we installed. It pumped a good supply of fuel and held a steady 40 psi oil pressure. However, there was no oil mess I was expecting.

We rebuilt this slant six was for the very reason that it was a nasty, crusty, caked on mess under the valve cover, and it showed no signs of getting fresh oil up there. We took the rocker arms and shaft apart and kept everything in the correct order for reassembly. It was all hot vatted and the head was cleaned up in one of those cabinets that slings the beads, prior to grinding the valves and getting resurfaced. The block was hot vatted, as well as the pick up tube. As I understand it, the rocker shaft has small holes located strategically under each of the rocker arms for lubrication. The arms themselves have a small orifice that exits on the valve stem end. I thought those openings would squirt oil out to lube the ends of the valve stems. Am I wrong, or is there a problem to investigate?

Final question...
Will I need to install a tach in order to break in the new engine and cam at the proper rpm, or is there a seat-of-the pants method of approximating the rpm?

Two steps forward and one step back,
Jerry

_________________
There's a difference between ignorance and stupidity.
Ignorance is not knowing any better.
Stupidity is knowing, yet doing it anyway.

Yeah...no ignition switch usually means no spark!
Oil dribbling evenly out of the driver's side tip of each rocker arm, and dribbling down onto each pushrod via the rear of each rocker arm. Rev the engine and you should get little spatters of oil flying. Don't expect to see gushing anywhere.
Good. Now, is the shaft installed right way round? There's a little flat ground onto one of the end's edges. The flat goes upwards-forwards. Also, did you make sure to install the correct rocker shaft bolts in the correct locations?
True and correct on all counts.
No need to get so precise. The factory never was! The main thing is not to run at low (curb) idle for extended periods. Keep the RPMs above 1000 and vary the engine speed -- this allows ample oil to reach the cam lobes and prevents localised wear while the lifters bed in.

That's what has me concerned - no dribbling. Should this be obvious at curb idle speed, or will the rpm need to be higher?
All I can say, right now, is that we followed the Hayne's manual to the letter on how to reassemble the rocker shaft assembly. I'll be sure to check the orientation of the "flat" you mentioned, next time we're at the shop. I know there is supposed to be a longer bolt in the rear position.
How does one know it is 1000 rpm? Does that equate to approximately 1/2 throttle or what?

Dan, you said earlier: When the distributor shaft engaged the cam gear, I lined up the bolt hole on the housing hold-down with the mounting bolt. There was not much play left to rotate CCW, before the bolt hit the side of the slotted hole. How much rotation should I expect to see?

Thanks for all the help, guys. I can't tell you how exciting this is to get over this hurdle with Aaron's project. There is light at the end of the tunnel.

Jerry

_________________
There's a difference between ignorance and stupidity.
Ignorance is not knowing any better.
Stupidity is knowing, yet doing it anyway.

Yurgh. Throw the Haynes manual in the trash. Do it right now, today, before one more piece of the incorrect and missing information in that book can cause you further expense, damage or injury.

You really, really, really need a factory Chrysler-printed service manual or you'll be working against yourself and experiencing more "2 steps forward, 3 steps back" situations. The right manuals are neither difficult nor expensive to find (eBay, autolit.com ), and they are between 3 and 5 times thicker -- for just ONE model year -- than the cruddy Haynes book is for TEN model years.
Yep, you should scarcely be able to see the actual holes in the ends of the rocker arms, for oil should be steadily dribbling out. If not, there's a restriction in the system (still/again) and/or the rocker shaft isn't installed correctly.
Normal slow/curb idle is about 700 rpm. The first/highest step on the fast idle cam (when you start up from cold) is about 1200 to 1400 rpm. Estimate from there. 1000 RPM doesn't take much throttle. Higher is fine, but don't rev the snot out of it.
Enough to reach your desired initial timing setting plus a little margin! There's another, longer adjusting slot where the hold down plate bolts to the underside of the distributor body. There's a special "backwards-Z" wrench to reach this underside bolt, VIM number V-103, but it can be tough to find. Ordinary distributor wrenches are the wrong size, for the bolt on the \6 is 7/16". You can use a regular wrench, it just means having to remove the distributor again. For an initial timing setting, try 5° BTDC (at 700 RPM in Park or Neutral, engine warmed up to operating temperature, vacuum advance hose disconnected and plugged)

What year car is this, again?

Dan, this is a '74 Dart Sport. To ease my mind about the way we installed the shaft, I'll try to get to the shop today and check for the "flat" you mentioned.

For the sake of understanding this system better, let's suppose the rocker shaft is installed correctly. Can someone describe the path that oil must follow to eventually get to the rocker arms, starting at the pick up tube? I know for a fact the tube is clean and clear of obstruction. I used a bent wire and scraped off every last speck of crusty old debris before installing it. And assuming the pump is working correctly, because it maintains a constant 40 psi on the mechanical gauge I installed at the sending unit port (I can also see oil pushing up the little plastic tube towards the gauge), then where could there be an obstruction? How does the oil get to the rocker shaft?

One more comment regarding the oil system. I thought the capacity of the slant six was 5 quarts total. We ran the engine a few times for a very short period each time trying to work out some carb problems. I'm sure it would have been plenty of time to work the initial 4 quarts we started with through the system. The car is sitting level on four jack stands. We checked the fluid levels several times, and each time, the oil dipstick read "full" with only the 4 quarts. Shouldn't it be showing "low" and need the 5th quart?

Trying to remain optimistic,
Jerry

_________________
There's a difference between ignorance and stupidity.
Ignorance is not knowing any better.
Stupidity is knowing, yet doing it anyway.

That's what I thought, which means I don't understand the influence your instrument cluster's location (in or out of the car) would've exerted on the ignition switch, which in a '74 is on the steering column.
Sure, but this is one of the reasons you need to find and buy a Factory Service Manual[/b] without delay. All this info is in there.

Oil pan ⇒ oil pickup ⇒ oil pump ⇒ main oil gallery ⇒ rearmost camshaft bearing inlet hole ⇒ rearmost camshaft journal cross passage ⇒ rearmost camshaft journal outlet hole ⇒ vertical passage in block ⇒ vertical passage in head ⇒ rearmost rocker shaft bolt tower ⇒ rocker shaft ⇒ rocker arms

There've been rashes in the past of camshafts with improperly-crossdrilled rear journals, which denies oil to the valvetrain. Of course, a turned camshaft bearing will also deny oil to the valvetrain.


That may well have got the job done, but a lot crud can hide inside the rocker shaft. It's best to remove the end plugs, string the rocker arms and spacers on a steel wire loop, and take the whole shemozzle to be hot tanked. Then install new end plugs and reassemble.


The "good pump" assumption sounds valid.


It is, with the tall-style filter.


Improper dipstick, improper dipstick tube, proper dipstick and tube but installed/bent at improper angle, filter draining down...