Hello all:

Just wanted to re-introduce myself...I was a member about four or five years ago on the old board, occasionally writing in to seek some info.

I have been a regular lurker since, but many of my projects are starting to come to fruition, so I decided it was time to chime in again so that perhaps a few of you could help me along.

That said...my name is Karl Boe from Vanbo Racing Inc. in Portland OR. I am 41 years old and have been building quick Pontiacs for 20 years, and racing twice weekly to two championships for about 12 of those...in between time consuming business ventures!

I built this car:


in the early nineties for my girlfriend of the time, Sorry bout the bad pic, I wanted a recent one, and jumped outside between rain storms last evening...this is the best I could do enhancing with photoshop...will get better ones later.

It is a strange beast that came to be thru a series of coincidences.

Patti is an interesting woman to say the least, and when she wanted an old car, she was very specific...64 Valiant, post car, manual everything, sure-grip for snow...and it must have the extremely rare old Oregon plates known as Pacific Wonderland.

After a year of looking without getting anywhere, I came out of my business one night, to find that someone had pushed an old Valiant up to the corner with a for sale sign...$200 got me a rust free 64, with manual everything except the trans...and Pacific Wonderland plates.

The next day I ran into an old friend...he was a Mopar guy who just bought a Super Gas car the week before...he offered to sell me his /6, four speed, 8.75 rear Barracuda driver for $400.

I combined the two and this was Patti's car for 5-6 years as a driver.

She went on to make a bunch of money and meet a really wealthy (and very nice) guy, and slowly the car began to get parked and she finally bought a new car...

Long story short...she gave the car to me about five years ago, and it is now my daily driver when I'm not driving my GTO. I never thought I would like the car...after all, I have driven a 400hp or more GTO as my daily driver for 20 years.

But alas, I fell in love...the four speed makes it so much fun to drive, I can see out of it so well in all conditions, and I can floor it everywhere, and the cops don't even know I'm gettin on it!!!! Something I can't do in my 10 second driver GTO without attracting ALOT of attention!

SO, I came to this board years ago to find information on /6 stuff, and although I found a wealth of info and this is a great resource, I also found that most of my questions(engine building and efi) at the time were way over the technical speak of the board members at that time.

No offense to anyone...this is a great board, but even after all these years, I find that the /6 community is way behind my level of engine building decision making...from cam selection to efficiency issues, only a few on the board discuss issues at the level I need to learn anything. My initial questions years ago were tilted toward cam selection, I wanted to know what experience anyone had with running different lobe sep angles or advancing cams, or choosing lift duration values, and or aggresiveness of lobes, relative to cylinders firing every 120 degrees compared to 90. How piston velocity in a small bore effects lobe selection, This is just a sample of the types of questions I was asking...but I got blank pages, not even a discussion, or people asking for for details of what I wanted to know.

Same goes for the articles on this site, very informative, and I've learned alot, but most stop well short of the really valuable information...such as the stroking article, makes no reference to wrist pin height or diameter. Discussions of the metric pistons and possible zero deck clearance for squish, don't mention the dish shapes, or how the combustion chamber shape is related to the piston dish...samples of the kind of info needed to make decisions about an engine build.

Anyway, I am not writing in to complain, I'm writing to join in...I have been studying the /6 now for a few years, I am ready to build my first /6 short block and head, I plan on success at getting a mild /6 to run in the mid fourteens and be very drivable. I plan to do it as inexpensively as possible.

Also, I am a carb and ignition specialist, with my own distributor machine. I also have a full size lathe and mill, as well as a small cnc mill and lathe. Also, I have a turret lathe for small production runs. I will be using my electronics skill to complete a home made fuel injection system I have been working on for awhile.

Many parts have been collected such as these:



My dual Offy manifold...swap meet special...brand new split headers, manifold, and two Holleys...$125 I got the TB's from two wrecked Berettas. My first foray into injection will be the Throttle bodies because it will be easier to set up the fuel system and electronics and dial in and test the sytem this way.

First, I will install my electronic dash(with analog tach) that includes full digital ignition using a locked out stock distributor(no pictures yet but have done the work)

Then I will install:



I will play with the carbs(Dellortos) this summer, but the manifold will be my port injection setup after I get the electronics dialed in...

I also have a complete distributorless ignition design and mostly tested,,,but that will be the last thing.

Anyway...enough for now...I didn't want to write and complain, but I felt I know enough now to join in on this board, try to help a few others, perhaps glean some value from others opinions of my projects...but mostly to share my results as I try to enhance this little Valiant over the next two years into an exceptional driver, autocross fun worthy, and occasional drag race surprise for the rice burners out there...

I cal it my ...Rice Burner Burner

I have just completed incalllling urethane rear bushings on my 340? 6 leaf springs, KYB shocks, changed pinion angle 2 degrees negative, and installed four 15x7 small bolt rally's(my 8.75 is small bolt), I was just given a 69 Valiant with just rebuilt KH 4 pistons and new rotors by the same guy that sold me the Barracuda. So I am ready to install those in a week or so after I finish machining my adjustable strut arms and new design LCA "bearing" and pin assembly that will move the control arm forward for more positive caster while allowing the upper arms to be adjusted to provide neg camber.

If it works well I might even kit the assembly for others.

A rude awakening was had when I bought the wheels, it never occurred to me they wouldn't make the tires I wanted...after measuring from my old 235/60/14's, I decided on 245/50/15's. They don't make them!!! The biggest tire that would fit is 225/50/15, the next size up is 265/50/15! Thats whats in the picture above. They look cool, handle awesome, but I wanted some big meats and couldn't even pay the piper to own them...oh well!!!

I just got done putting delrin bearings in place of the urethane bushings on a 66 GTO setup for autocross...the ride was much smoother with the suspension able to move freely and let the springs and shocks do the work.

Enough for now...Howdy all!

I am an accomplished graphic designer and animator, so I will post pics and info as I complete my projects to try to help others accomplish /6 goals as well.

Thanks for hearing me out...to my surprise, I love my a-body as much as my Pontiac a-body.

Karl Boe aka "gearhead"
Vanbo Racing Inc.
Lemon Studios Inc.

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64 GTO...10.80's@122 on street radials
Destroked 455, Qjet, stock ign, 2400 stall

64 Valiant
Old 225, 4spd, 2.92-8.75, 2bbl, headers
dual 2.25"

Welcome onboard, Karl!

Sounds like you'll have a great deal of insight to share with the board. Please don't be bashful; write up your discoveries and ideas if you're so inclined! And please don't hesitate to keep posting the higher-level questions. Even if you get few responses (or none), you'll get people thinking and talking, and that's never a bad thing.

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一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Sounds like we need you...

Glad to have you. I'm even interested in the animation work you do. I teach AutoCAD and would like to begin learning 3D Studio MAX to take my classes to a higher level.

Come back often,
Jerry

_________________
There's a difference between ignorance and stupidity.
Ignorance is not knowing any better.
Stupidity is knowing, yet doing it anyway.

Thanks Guys:

I should note that I not only drive this car daily, I drive it hard...I out drove the original clutch in just a few months and changed it to a 10". I have already got this one so that I can't race it anymore, won't bite off the line, but it does grip good for the street still. Next step, I have a hyd clutch assembly and then go to a striffer pressure plate.

90% of the time this car is being driven hard, shifting fast and hard, getting sideways whenever I can. I drive to the Bay area from Portland each month(650 miles one way) at 3000rpm starting cruise (70mph), but often (since I drive the wee hours) take it up to 3500 or more in the N. California plains. My milage varies from 17mpg at 2800rpm to 9.9 at 3800 rpm.

I'm way over revving the 1 bbl cam in that poor old engine and it kills the efficiency!

I just bought a cast iron overdrive for it at the swap meet for $40. I will install this while I put new synchros in the four speed.

Here is a couple pics of some of my fuel injection and ignition test electronics and setups:




This pic shows a board I made that allows me to spin a model of a harmonic balancer at any rpm from 0-6000. It has four magnets embedded in it and triggers a hall effect sensor that I can read with my circuit boards and write the software to test sensors, and such.


Once I have the trigger point and rpm data, I can send a signal back to the coil charge circuit and fire the spark plug. I can even put a timing light on it and check the timing or curve.

Anyways, just some stuff I thought you efi guys might like.

My graphic design and animation skills are a life long interest incorporated into my newest business. My partner and I make How-to DVD's. At this time for robotics and electronics. We extensively use anmation to help with visual aids in understanding some of the trickier, timing related issues of programming and using digital electronics.

I use Final Cut 4, Adobe After Effects, Lightwave Studio 3D, Flash MX among others at the studio. At home I use Linux based products...Blender 3D cause its free, The Gimp, etc.

You can check out some trailers of my DVDs at:

http://www.lemonstudios.com

Broadband is needed for the trailers.

I will document whatever I do to the Valiant and provide results whether positive or negative.

I have alot on my plate, but I should be able to get at least a few things done on it this summer

Thanks

Gearhead

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64 GTO...10.80's@122 on street radials
Destroked 455, Qjet, stock ign, 2400 stall

64 Valiant
Old 225, 4spd, 2.92-8.75, 2bbl, headers
dual 2.25"

Good to have you aboard, Karl. Hope your Slant projects work out well.

You might be interested to look at Megasquirt (www.msefi.com) for a solid, inexpensive, and programmable EFI computer.

One thing you might want to think about is the effect of the large stroke and small bore in the 225. One way this shows up is the smaller total ign advance we use for max power (28-30). This is a very different situation from any US V8s, and most other engines for that matter. I believe that cam selection has not been considered enough in this context as most people start with V8 specs and tweak from there, often in wrong directions.

One example is that most people use split pattern cams with more exhaust duration on V8s, but what I have seen recently (Aussie friend's dyno tests, and Mopar factory split pattern cams) leads me to believe that the exhaust needs less duration than the intake.

Lou

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Home of Slant6-powered fun machines since 1988

Thanks Lou:

I've been following the MegaSquirt since its very first article in Circuit Cellar Magazine back in 1999 or so...

I started on mine back in 97 with testing of software loops and sensor calibrations...and have systematically increased my knowledge since. I have even incorporated some of the sensor interface circuits from the MS into my design. No reason to reinvent the wheel.

I would just buy a MS but for two reasons...One: certain options I want to incorporate will never be part of the MS system. Two: I want to build it myself from scratch because the reason I'm doing this is to completely understand every line of code, and to be able to change it at will or add options.

I know that I could do some of this with the MS, but the Motorola chip used is one of the few brands I have zero experience with...I am using two different platforms with mine that communicate with each other.

One proccessor uses the language basic for low speed tasks and data acquisition, the other Seimens Board is the high speed interface to do injection and ignition duties.

On cams...since I am used to Pontiacs, I am well versed in long stroke small bore engines. Also, Pontiacs use a long (6.625") connecting rod which is comparable to the /6. In fact, my destroked 455 has a 6.7" aftermarket rod to get to the +.003" deck I run.

Most cam designs, V8 or otherwise, incorporate more exhaust duration because factory exhaust systems are lack luster to say the least. Once a good modern design system is in place, we no longer need the extra exhaust duration...blow down scavenges most of the exhaust very early in the exhaust stroke...most of the rest of the duration is set to the desired overlap to get higher efficiencies at certain rpms by pulse tuning the exhaust to intake.

I look forward to experimenting with the Slant cam over the next few years.

One thing I always keep in mind...since none of my engines are typically built the way most would approach a problem, is that all engines are a compromise...so you must build to the desired end use, without prejudice toward a particular configuration or way of doing things...what matters is what works, not what someone says should, or what someone else does.

It completely makes sense to me that the /6 would use less timing, since the chamber volume and cyl volume during the first portion of the stroke is so small.

On my Pontiac engines, my small chamber 11.2:1 engine has 77cc heads and 7 cc valve reliefs...my usual low comp engines are in the area of 102-105cc's. So all things being equal, the whole point of ignition lead(advance) is to reach the breakeven point of correct cyl pressure at TDC for max power, vs. the trade off of slowing the piston compressing an expanding, burning, mixture. So with a long stroke, and small chamber volume, it will require less advance to fill the 54cc or so of volume in a Slant 6.

That said, much Drag Strip testing has put me at 35 degrees total.

Anyways, thanks

Karl

_________________
64 GTO...10.80's@122 on street radials
Destroked 455, Qjet, stock ign, 2400 stall

64 Valiant
Old 225, 4spd, 2.92-8.75, 2bbl, headers
dual 2.25"

If memory serves, the 455 is pretty much a "square" engine - 4.25" stroke and 4.125" bore or something like that? Still a ways away from the 225, but closer than most engines.

Yes, the small chamber for a given compression ratio is a direct consequence of the small bore/stroke ratio.

Do you mean 35 deg total on your 225? That is surprising, if the cam is degreed right and all. I suspect you will end up closer to 30 once you have your "ultimate" motor built.

Cheers,

Lou

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Home of Slant6-powered fun machines since 1988

Hi Lou:

Thats true about the 455...its closer than most V8's, but I've also built various other Pontiac engines including the 326...which is a 3.75" stroke and 3.72 bore.

In fact, my girlfreind drives and races a 66 LeMans with a 326. I've even tuned this engine to run low 15's with 2.51 gears. All stock except addition of Qjet and dual exhaust...but no headers.

The valve sizes on this small valve small bore engine are 1.96 and 1.66"

Anyway...I appreciate your thoughts, I have been studying the slant for awhile so that I don't throw too much money away learning. I have an open mind to what will work, and always tune for months after a change so as to decipher the true affects of any hardware change.

Karl

_________________
64 GTO...10.80's@122 on street radials
Destroked 455, Qjet, stock ign, 2400 stall

64 Valiant
Old 225, 4spd, 2.92-8.75, 2bbl, headers
dual 2.25"

There could be a number of reasons why my engine responds to more timing...the fact that it has 350K miles on it and the puny cam has no doubt retarded itself 5 or more degrees from chain stretch.

Could be That the increase in low end to launch is not hurt by the excess timing on the top since my engine is wound out at 4000 and never really has a top end charge.

The MPH was unaffected by significant changes in timing, so I went higher and higher until the launch did not improve. I ran the exact same times at 44 degrees total as 35, but a tenth slower at 28. At 32 the car ran about the same as now, but was harder to get consistant 60ft times.

One of the reasons for my own ignition/ injection controller is so that I can run different timing in each gear. The rate of change of rpm during each gear creates a different requirement for ignition timing due to the changing load on the engine.

Doing Dyno testing on Pontiac engines, we try to set the dyno to pull the engine thru the same rate of rpm that it sees at the track for each gear, then maximize the tune up for each accel rate of the engine.

The HP numbers vary dramatically for different rates of acceleration...

This is why most tune-ups performed on chassis dynos run slower at the track than a track tuned combo done well.

Chassis dyno's only tune for high gear, when the rate of change of rpm is low, and a high and consistant load remains on the engine over a long peiod of time. This results in finding HP increases by leaning the mixture and decreasing total timing.

If you ran the same test in first gear, you would more than likely find a need for ten degrees more timing and a fatter jet to achieve max power.

Hence the "high gear retard" boxes you see in the Jegs catalog.

I have been following your exploits with your car over the years, and am very impressed, you have accomplished most of the goals I have for my car including the road racing.

Karl

_________________
64 GTO...10.80's@122 on street radials
Destroked 455, Qjet, stock ign, 2400 stall

64 Valiant
Old 225, 4spd, 2.92-8.75, 2bbl, headers
dual 2.25"

Welcome.

You have offered quite a bit of interesting input in just a few days. I feel like I just took a crash course in cam selection. (I still have some questions, but we'll save that for a day when I actually have some money to invest in a cam)

Hopefully you will not be discouraged as members of the board question your methods and experience. I think you would do the same. You have done a good job of introducing yourself. Hopefully we will all benifit from re-evaluating our methods or looking at a new perspective.

I am hoping to eventually go EFI (maybe next summer) Do you have any preliminary cost estimate for your system? What is still left to do?

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1980 Aspen 225 super six

Yes, thanks for all your insights, Karl. I agree with your methods and your findings.

I am happy that you have taken something useful from my exploits as well. Modernization, and the "total package" car has been my goal since I got my 68 Dart in 1988, but has been usually extremely fund limited. I pick away at a slow pace and make what progress I can...

Very good point about the dyno tuning. I discovered that same thing a few years ago while drag racing my 64. One timing setting gave best 60 fts, but lazier top end, and vice versa.

I like the idea of a gear-tunable ignition map. Another more general way to achieve that would be to have the ignition timing dependent on the instantaneous accleration rate of engine RPM. Then any rear gear or track changes (like hills or corners) would be taken care of regardless of the trans gear you are in. This could be done entirely in software, I believe. This would be worth posing to the Megasquirt folks, as there are some software junkies who would probably embrace the challenge.

Cheers,

Lou

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Home of Slant6-powered fun machines since 1988

Howdy, Karl!

If you want to talk bigger-than-/6 horsepower *and* Mopar sometime, give me a PM.. my username isn't just for grins

I'd love to hear more about your suspension modifications. I've got two B-body and 1 C-body Mopar, and all 3 have various levels of improvement. The Delrin LCA "bearing" is something I've considered before, and I'm interested in first-hand experiences with long-term durability (the C-body and one of the B's is a daily driver) as well as ride and performance compared to the usual polygraphite bushings. I've been very pleased with polygraphite so far, but my word of warning is NOT to buy the balljoints that some of the suspension houses sell with their poly "front end kits." Chinese-made tinkertoy stuff, gone in less than 10,000 miles in one case. Nuff said.

I'm also interested in the adjustable strut rod. My 440-powered B-body led a hard life before I got it and as a result I have to dial in almost all of the UCA cam adjustment on one side in order to get camber and caster in spec, which leaves no room for further experimentation. Its not really bad enough to warrant putting it on a frame machine and tweaking the unibody, and strut rod adjustability would fix the problem beautifully.

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You know, I wrote up a page-long response to Dr. Dodge's comment about dual-pattern /6 cams the other day, and I got interrupted (curse you, paying job!!) and never posted it. And then killed the browser :p

Anyway, I have *never* heard of a dual-pattern cam with a shorter profile on exhaust than intake until Dr. Dodge's post. In the B/RB Mopar world where I usually live, the general consensus is that the dual-pattern cam (such as the factory Magnum/TNT/Commando/Roadrunner grind) is the bee's knees if you want to keep cast-iron hi-po Mopar exhaust manifolds, but as soon as you put a good set of headers on, go to a single pattern grind like the MP 484 or MP509 (or similar cams from Hughes, CompCams, etc.) The whole reason for dual patterns was to help out the exhaust side, and I can't imagine a stock engine being more limited on the intake side.

My question (that I typed in and never sent) is whether or not ANY of those dual-pattern cams with short exhaust profiles came from Chrysler. Since the same team of engineers that designed the B/RB also created the /6, I would assume they would have a very good reason to go one way on the big v8 and a different way on the /6, but I don't know that they're the ones that did...

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Yep.

Stock '60-'65 170, '60-'64 225:

232° intake, 228° exhaust, 8° overlap. Intake lift is a little greater than exhaust lift, but I don't have the specs in front of me.

Stock '65-'70 225, '66-'69 170, '70 198:

240° intake, 236° exhaust, 16° overlap. 0.395" intake lift, 0.375" (IIIRC) exhaust lift.

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一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.