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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2002 12:50 pm 
Something I've been playing a mental game with is whether the batch-fire EFI could compensate for drastic difference in induction.

Think back to a Chuck Norris film, "Lone Wolf McQuade". In it his Dodge Ramcharger
"supposedly" had an electric clutch system on an underhood blower, that could be turned on and off at will.

I can't help but wonder if the GM efi setup would be able to compensate for such large variations in a similar induction setup. What I'm thinking is that if one ran the larger/turbo injectors capable of delivering needed fuel, with a Paxton-type supercharger fitted with an a/c clutch, might it be possible? It seems to me the MAF sensor is the key, here, working in conjunction with the O2 sensor, that would regulate the fuel/air ratio with the injector pulse width, without regard to whether it's normally aspirated or pressurized.

I realize one would have to supply a bypass around the blower while not using it, while still drawing the air through the MAF sensor. Perhaps some type of electric solenoid gate system would do the job.

It seems to me the setup would be much easier on the engine, as for daily driver needs it could be run normally aspirated, and switched over for performance requirements.

Any thoughts, Bob, or others, or am I living in a parallel universe?

Roger

GTS225@aol.com


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2002 10:40 am 
Hi Roger,

I remember seeing a Gale Banks turbo system that would bypass the turbo under no-boost conditions, then when boost built up the bypass would shut and the system would operate like a normal turbo system. The idea was to eliminate turbo lag by allowing the motor to bypass the turbo if there was no boost. The bypass was a simple "reed valve" type one way checkvalve.

Whether the computer would know enough to increase the fuel in the correct proportion to the boost is something I don't know. One thing to keep in mind is that most factory ECUs go "open loop" at wide open throttle, so the O2 sensor data won't be used to correct the mixture.

Good ideas though. Maybe using a more configurable ECU (Accel or Electromotive) would provide the flexibility to make it work.

Note that some of the above might be wrong...I'm not an expert by any means, just some things I've picked up.

regards,
mark


mldingba@collins.rockwell.com


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2002 4:38 pm 
Quote:
: Something I've been playing a mental game with
: is whether the batch-fire EFI could
: compensate for drastic difference in
: induction.
:
: Think back to a Chuck Norris film, "Lone
: Wolf McQuade". In it his Dodge
: Ramcharger
: "supposedly" had an electric clutch
: system on an underhood blower, that could be
: turned on and off at will.
:
: I can't help but wonder if the GM efi setup
: would be able to compensate for such large
: variations in a similar induction setup.
: What I'm thinking is that if one ran the
: larger/turbo injectors capable of delivering
: needed fuel, with a Paxton-type supercharger
: fitted with an a/c clutch, might it be
: possible? It seems to me the MAF sensor is
: the key, here, working in conjunction with
: the O2 sensor, that would regulate the
: fuel/air ratio with the injector pulse
: width, without regard to whether it's
: normally aspirated or pressurized.
:
: I realize one would have to supply a bypass
: around the blower while not using it, while
: still drawing the air through the MAF
: sensor. Perhaps some type of electric
: solenoid gate system would do the job.
:
: It seems to me the setup would be much easier
: on the engine, as for daily driver needs it
: could be run normally aspirated, and
: switched over for performance requirements.
:
: Any thoughts, Bob, or others, or am I living in
: a parallel universe?
:
: Roger


Roger,
I would think that if there were an advantage to turning off the supercharger when it was not needed, that the practice would be more common. But then I don't know much about superchargers.
I'm sure that the batch fire EFI cannot compensate for drastic differences in induction, such as produced by a supercharger or turbo, with the MAF alone. You would have to change or re-program the ECM, as well as use larger injectors, and probably also increase fuel pressure. That's my plan for a turbo anyway. The more I investigate this the more confident I am that it will work!

Bob D



BBobbias@aol.com


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2002 6:06 pm 
Quote:
: Hi Roger,
:
: I remember seeing a Gale Banks turbo system
: that would bypass the turbo under no-boost
: conditions, then when boost built up the
: bypass would shut and the system would
: operate like a normal turbo system. The idea
: was to eliminate turbo lag by allowing the
: motor to bypass the turbo if there was no
: boost. The bypass was a simple "reed
: valve" type one way checkvalve.
:
: Whether the computer would know enough to
: increase the fuel in the correct proportion
: to the boost is something I don't know. One
: thing to keep in mind is that most factory
: ECUs go "open loop" at wide open
: throttle, so the O2 sensor data won't be
: used to correct the mixture.
:
: Good ideas though. Maybe using a more
: configurable ECU (Accel or Electromotive)
: would provide the flexibility to make it
: work.
:
: Note that some of the above might be
: wrong...I'm not an expert by any means, just
: some things I've picked up.
:
: regards,
: mark


Mark,
I guess I don't understand the use of the by-pass to eliminate turbo lag. My understanding of turbo lag is that it is just the lack of boost, and is no worse than the response from the same engine if it didn't have a turbo (or if the turbo were by-passed). However, I have no idea why the by-pass would have been used.

Bob D



BBobbias@aol.com


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 Post subject: eliminate long path
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2002 7:36 am 
Quote:
: Mark,
: I guess I don't understand the use of the
: by-pass to eliminate turbo lag. My
: understanding of turbo lag is that it is
: just the lack of boost, and is no worse than
: the response from the same engine if it
: didn't have a turbo (or if the turbo were
: by-passed). However, I have no idea why the
: by-pass would have been used.
:
: Bob D

Hi Bob,

The setup, as I remember it, had a 'suck through' carb mounted over the normal intake position and then routed the fuel/air over to the turbo, boosted it, then took it back to the intake. This was on a small block chevy. The reed valve bypass was between the part under the carb and the part over the intake. I guess Gale's idea was to eliminate the long (probably 3-4 feet) path from carb to turbo to intake during no-boost conditions. That's the only time I've ever seen this done, so maybe it did not work out. I believe it was in a Popular Hot Rodding article, but might have been Car Craft/Hot Rod as I got most of them in the early 80s.

mldingba@collins.rockwell.com


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 Post subject: Re: eliminate long path
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2002 4:32 pm 
Quote:
: Hi Bob,
:
: The setup, as I remember it, had a 'suck
: through' carb mounted over the normal intake
: position and then routed the fuel/air over
: to the turbo, boosted it, then took it back
: to the intake. This was on a small block
: chevy. The reed valve bypass was between the
: part under the carb and the part over the
: intake. I guess Gale's idea was to eliminate
: the long (probably 3-4 feet) path from carb
: to turbo to intake during no-boost
: conditions. That's the only time I've ever
: seen this done, so maybe it did not work
: out. I believe it was in a Popular Hot
: Rodding article, but might have been Car
: Craft/Hot Rod as I got most of them in the
: early 80s.


I see. Thanks Mark. Your right, I guess there are configurations where "turbo lag" is worse than the atmospheric engine's throttle response. Obviously a draw-through carb is one of them. However, technically I think this condition would actually be considered a slow throttle response, and not really turbo lag. I agree with you though, the result is the same; floor it, wait, and then go.

Bob D



BBobbias@aol.com


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