I would like to start out by saying I am a do-it- yourselfer, and have been all my life. I have always fixed my own house and cars, and seldom called a pro to do anything. The model railroad scale I model in, one must build much of the stuff one self, which I do. I enjoy being independent,and feeling competent.

However, I have been a service pro all my life. People call me for help all the time. I have made a good living answering the phone and giving people appointments for piano service which I ALWAYS kept. Being reliable, dependable, predictable and showing up on time is a big part of success in any service business. My customers love me.

Every single, time with no exceptions, I have tried to employ a pro to help with my EFI I have had to deal with guys who stood me up, postponed, put off, failed to do what they promised, or in one case just kept the car for 18 months and and did nothing. In every case, I have been offering to pay. I am not asking for favors. These are not my relatives, or friends. They are supposed to be pros.

Now this gent named Peter has said he will help me out, but so far will not simply give me a date so we can make plans. His answers to my e-mails are short, cryptic, and sometimes encouraging, but so far basically non committal as to a time.I have not kept track of the time, but when we first started talking about it, it was Spring, although to be fair I think he has had the hardware from me for about 6 weeks maybe. I feel like my entire life with this project has been on hold for years.

I don't think I have been a PITA. I seem patient. I am always polite and kind. I offer to pay whatever they think is fair. I am not dickering price here. Every time I enter into the deal thinking "This time it is going to be different". And every time, I end up waiting weeks, months and years for something to happen. Eventually I give up and get my stuff back. In this case, Peter has all my stuff as well. All I am asking for at this point is a commitment.

So please give me some feedback on this. Should I be patient, and just wait some more, even if it takes another 18 months? Or should I write him and say, if you cannot make a commitment, please send my stuff back.

The problem off course, is that so far I have not been able to get this to work on my own. Twice I have tried to set up an EFI engine management system that included timing, done everything according to instructions, and it simply would not start. So there were high hopes and then heartbreak. For the record,this is the only time in my life I have ever had this kind of experience. Usually, everything I touch comes out looking good and working well. Not only does this make me feel like a failure, I feel like I cannot afford to burn too many bridges and piss off the guys who might be able to help meout. This EFI project has made me feel dependent on incompetent, non-professional PROS. It is very frustrating to say the least.

Am I doing something wrong here, or is the industry just the weirdest one on the planet? Where is the flaw in my approach? Is my personality just wrong to engage this kind of pro? Are they looking for George Foreman to storm in and scream, "I am not going to pay a lot for this EFI service?" Is this a project I should simply abandon? Do you think I should ask for my stuff back and try to get it going with the help of the forum? Is there someone else out there who would be willing and able to lend a hand for a fee? Do you know another Mega SQuirt guy who is tech savvy and is somewhere near Maryland? Am I being too nice? Do they see a patsy coming and just walk over me? Am I being unreasonable to expect pros to act like pros, and make and keep commitments? I am so confused at this point. End of rant.

One similar experience with this car happened early on when I tried to get a pro to install AC from a donor car. After weeks of waiting, I went and got my car back, and installed it myself. The deal had a similar feel. At that time I had a similar ambivalence. Do I get the car back, and do it myself, or just be patient?

I really want your opinion. Don't hesitate to say if you think I am the problem here. I feel like the universe is trying to tell me something, but I am having trouble reading what the message is.

PS, The car does run now with MS I. So being patient is not entirely unreasonable.

Sam

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I think the real problem is getting anyone to do anything that truly involves fabrication, or something NEW for them. Most EFI/tuner guys just slap ECUs on imports and plug-n-play, then hook up their laptop and go. Anything that has not been done 100 times or more by someone scares them away. That fits with your AC story too. DIFFERENT = SCARY.

I would be talking to or making a deal with Matt Cramer, who has actually done such things on a Slant 6 A-body. Or, maybe I can help sometime...

My 2 cents...

Lou

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Home of Slant6-powered fun machines since 1988

Lou, You are probably on to something there. I think my car did scare away most of the people who did not come through as promised.

Sam

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Bottom line, custom work can be time consuming, and takes both more time and more mental effort than simple by the book installs, like Lou mentioned. It's a challenge to find someone who's up for it, and when you do find someone like that, they generally have their hands full as there aren't as many people capable of that work as there are people who need it done.

I once decided since I'm pretty busy I would have a shop do some fabrication work on my turbo install. They really only had one good fabricating guy. He was making good progress, then quit and nobody else wanted to pick up the job. The car sat there for about a year before I paid for the work that had been done and took the car back. When I left my Clifford intake to be modified for EFI and have a fuel rail fabricated, it took them six weeks, and that didn't seem too unreasonable to me at the time.

Peter is about the only guy I know in the US who both is willing to routinely work on MegaSquirts he didn't build (due to manpower restrictions, for example, DIYAutoTune has a rule they only repair ones they initially built) and that I trust to do a good job. (There's another guy I know who I give out these sorts of references for, but he's in the UK.) I suspect he simply has a major backlog of repairs.

It's a similar problem to finding a good quality machinist. There's a small pool of people who are good at it and a really big pool of work for them to do.

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"Mad Scientist" Matt Cramer
'66 Dart - turbocharged 225
My blog - Mad Scientist Matt's Lair

Sam, try HP works they are not scared of a slant six.
More than happy to help. Expensive. I don't know
how much they know about your system but are experienced
with lots of different efi systems. It may be a drive for you, but
could be worth it. Some systems they can set up off line in there shop then tell you what to do.
WIll
http://www.hpworks.com/

I heard from Peter today, and he offered me some dates. It looks like there is finally some movement here. Nothing definite yet, just some options on the table. If these work out, it will be soon. I will keep you posted.

Sam

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I hear your frustration Sam and I have to say that there have been many times, reading your posts, that I have wished we were closer so I could get my hands on your project and help you. I have no doubt in my mind that we could get the MS II EFI working as it should. I don't work for money, although I consider it impolite to refuse beer.

I love Megasquirt, but I'll be the first to say it is a non-linear journey. Each MS build I have done has gone a little differently. As we well know, the MSEFI information is all over the place. There is a ton of info out there but I'll be damned if I can find what I need when I need it every time. Usually, a month later, I'll be looking for something else and run across something I was looking for. A slap to the forehead usually results.

I think that not many paid professionals are willing to take the time to wade through all that information, and learn what they have to learn to actually do the job. A DIY EFI person has to sit up and pay attention to details. Someone running a shop wants billable work in definable chunks and working on a Megasquirt does not fit that description. I think that someone takes it on, then slowly realizes the depth and breadth that is really involved, and then the muffler installs and headgaskets take over.

I realize that does not explain the slipped appointments and lack of response to communication. Everybody has a different business model I guess.

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It's a Slant thing. Even I don't understand.

1974 Duster, EFI /6 soon to be turbo...

Get that Monkay! Get that nasty thing!!

Wow, after reading this... man, what an opportunity for a niche specialty shop.

I agree, most "pros" can't think outside the box, and thus, seem hamstrung when it comes to exploring the great unknown.

Hmmm... I've been "outside the box" my entire life. Perhaps an opportunity for a second business line. I actually LIKE doing this kind of stuff. Surely there's others out there who think the same and want to earn some money. I guess the question is, how do we find them?

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'81 W150 on Propane... Oversize valves, Oregon Camshaft cam, 10:5 static CR, Distributorless ignition, megajolt timing controller, PowerTrax lockers.

Some thoughts from a highly opinionated, deeply geeky, very specific individual who has picked up assorted scars on battlefields much like yours:

They are very few and very scarce who are willing and at least nominally able to do the kind of engineering-from-scratch required for a project like yours or mine, Sam. Of those few, only a small percentage have the interest/passion/weirdness/masochism to get into a project that will not result in a commercially saleable product and will almost certainly not even pay its own way for the one-off result, even at cost per hour. The hours add up so quickly that the total bill becomes something the car owner will never pay, so the choice becomes charging what the car owner will pay or not doing the job -- and by the time that becomes evident, the contractor has usually already racked up a whackload of hours. Gradually this dawns on those few who are willing and nominally able and interested, and they simply stick to their own projects because that's a slower way to lose money. In a nutshell, it is damn near impossible to make this kind of work pay. It's a neat idea, and it'd make a great going concern if we had a time machine and could go back to when Darts and Valiants were as common as Corollas are today, but in today's reality those who are interested in building a car like yours, and willing to pay some money for it, are almost statistically nonexistent. Scrub the "almost" for those who are willing and able to pay the actual cost!

That is the cold, hard, rotten economic truth of it. And that's without even accounting for the crazy-bastard factor. See my linked story above. The guy knows the subject but he (not his car) is badly overdue for a mental valve adjustment at least. Fact is, we are interested in engines and cars almost nobody cares about. Those who have the passion, drive, and resources to learn the breadth and depth of the totality of slant-6 knowledge...they tend to apply it to their own cars, which leaves very little time to spend on other people's cars. We are very, very fortunate to have some notable exceptions in our community -- obviously Doc is at the top of that list, and there are others.

And then there's the problem that when one has gone to such great lengths as you have to figure out exactly, precisely how you want your car to be configured, you are likely to clash with whatever scarce individual you might happen to find who knows what he's doing and has time and interest to apply to your project. That person probably also knows exactly how he'd configure your car, and it might not match your preference, so your options are to acquiesce and say "Fine, do it your way" and hope his way is satisfactory to you, or to hit the road and keep lookin' for someone else.

For the most part, if you're gonna be 'wayyyyyyy out there in the far-flung suburbs of the end of the bell curve with your build-up, and you want the car to wind up configured and working the way you want it configured and working, you're on your own.

I don't like it, but that's how it is.

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一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Sam-

I know you have a great deal of time and money invested in your Megasquirt setup, but I recommend you at least research the Ford-based multipoint MAF fuel injection system used on 89-93 Mustangs. The system is highly adaptable, plentiful, and has wonderful aftermarket support. Best of all, there is a product called the Tweecer that lets you configure every possible variable of how the computer controls the timing and the fuel mixture. You can turn an 8 cylinder ECU into a 6 cylinder ECU with whatever firing order you want. It is a true multi-point system and uses MAF rather than MAP.

For less money and a slightly easier setup, you could go with the Ford speed density batch fired system of the same vintage off of Ford 300 cubic inch engines. The Tweecer works with those too, but those systems use MAP and TPS rather than MAF to calculate spark and fuel.

The MAF based system is the one I want to use when I do my fuel injection installs on the slants in my brother's Duster and van. The systems are almost entirely bolt-on, except for the Hall sensor in the distributor. I have verified that the Ford 300 hall sensor will fit inside a Lean-Burn slant six distributor, but I haven't had the time to make any progress on this particular project. I am very excited to get a running prototype system built, but I am months away, at best.

You are ahead of the game since you have a fuel system already worked out. you would need to mount the Hall sensor in the distributor, machine and mount the six injectors, but otherwise you are ready to go. I think you would find the Tweecer system much more user friendly and easier to tune. Plus, there is a Yahoo group dedicated to supporting the Tweecer. I used the Tweecer my 89 Ford van and it is a great product with great support. I bought my unit used off of eBay, but when I had trouble getting the software to work, I posted a question on the Yahoo group and the inventor/manufacturer or the Tweecer unit CALLED ME PERSONALLY FROM TEXAS AT HIS EXPENSE to help me straighten it out. I was blown away.

Just food for thought. I am afraid that the Megasquit throttle body system is old tech that has been superseded by more efficient and user-friendly technology. I admire your skill and patience getting this far with Megasquirt, but I think you would like the Ford system and Tweecer-based tuning.

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Casually looking for a Clifford hyperpak intake for cheap.

Reed you are probably right about the Ford system. But this one is almost there. It sounds like Peter is going to get this going correctly next weekend. He has already responded with suggested changes to improve the drivability. This is just the kind of help that was needed to get things smoothed out. I likely would not change at this point.

I might change to a trigger wheel and EDIS at some future point.

Good luck on your project. And keep us posted.
Sam

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If I'm not mistaken, Sam's system is not throttle body injection. His is the multipoint set up. There is no 'Megasquirt throttle body' system.

Also, I have a hard time with the idea that something that has CANBUS support, and can support full sequential, multiple wideband O2 sensors, multiple MAP sensors, and can do native boost control as well as other functions, could be characterized as 'old tech'. The Ford system may work well, I have not looked at it, but I submit that a early '90's junkyard solution is closer to old tech than the current Megasquirt technology.

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It's a Slant thing. Even I don't understand.

1974 Duster, EFI /6 soon to be turbo...

Get that Monkay! Get that nasty thing!!

Ah, I thought same was using the throttle body system.

I have never used Megasquirt, but all I have ever heard about it is how difficult it is to set up and how much time it takes to set up. The Ford system is much closer to a plug and play system, and the tuning that is necessary is much easier to accomplish with the Tweecer because it permits things like real-time datalogging. Megasquirt may support multiple MAFs, multiple widebands, and boost, but so does the Ford system. The Ford system had parts available over the counter new (the computer in my van is from Autozone) and doesn't require as much do-it-yourself time.

Finally, just because Megasquirt CAN support all those things, would you really want to? At some point adding features just makes your machine a Rube Goldberg device that is pointlessly complex. If you can get the job done simpler, why not do it simpler?

Anywho, I'll keep everybody posted as my project progresses.

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Casually looking for a Clifford hyperpak intake for cheap.

Megasquirt does data logging or you can watch the variables live as you make changes. I haven't kept up with it but I think the last iteration of its hardware even includes a onboard SD card slot so you won't need a pc to datalog. It can also auto tune the VE map relative to the O2 sensor (and if you have wideband you can set specific AFR goals for each cell). I believe this still requires a laptop running software though.

Reed, how close are you to actually trying to start? Research is one thing but going down the road is another.

The Ford system sounds interesting and worth looking into. Obviously I love the MS systems but not so much that I refuse to entertain anything else.

It's funny, I hear that a lot about the MS systems being hard to set up. I think it's the case where it gives you a lot of rope to hang yourself with at times. At its simplest, it can be very simple. And no, I have never really entertained using every bell and whistle on the system. I do run dual MAP sensors, just because, really. It was also nice to be able to attach one wire and set a parameter in the firmware, and suddenly have a complete ignition system along with timing control.

I will run MPI with ignition on my next setup, most likely driven off a factory Magnum VR setup on a 318, unless I do the EDIS on the slant first.

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It's a Slant thing. Even I don't understand.

1974 Duster, EFI /6 soon to be turbo...

Get that Monkay! Get that nasty thing!!