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 Post subject: More Slant Problems
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2002 7:37 am 
Had to take the engine out again, #6 rod let go! Any good suggestions on cause and effect? Here's what is in the engine (bottom end) now:

3 core hole block 0.065" over
1291 Silvolite pistons cut 0.130 off the top for about 10.5:1 comp. ratio using 35cc head
Std crank with cross drilled mains, F-M bearings.
198 rods using F-M bearings. Balanced bottom end.
Mellings oil pump w/std. spring
Detailed block, over drilled oil passages, risers in lifter galley, fully deburred and cleaned.
Stock pan and pickup with windage tray. Using 6 quarts 10-30 with 51515 Wix filter. Riser pipes in galley and bigger filter hold about 3/4 quart up in engine.
Partial groove on last cam bearing journal for more oil to topend. Grooved rocker shaft under each rocker.

We think that the piston problem from before may have bent or kinked the #6 rod and we did not see it when the engine was reassembled. All rod bearings have some edge loading marks on them, and the #4 main smeared the babbit but did not cause any damage to the crank. Looks like a 0.020" cut on the rods will fix the crank, and we have another set of 198 rods for a rebuild. Oil pressure runs at 50psi all the time, and we really don't know what could have happened.

Car ran 15.7 @ 87 in 90° heat the first time at the track with a low 2.3 60 foot time, shifting 1-2 with the trans and 2-3 manual shift. Need tach or lite because we think that the trans is shifting at only 4000-4500 rpm, and the cam wants at least 5200-5500. Headed for mid 14 sec at 92-94 in a street driven 4 dr car.

Thanks for any help you can give.



sgw041454@aol.com


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2002 9:47 am 
Quote:
: Had to take the engine out again, #6 rod let
: go! Any good suggestions on cause and
: effect? Here's what is in the engine (bottom
: end) now: 3 core hole block 0.065" over
: 1291 Silvolite pistons cut 0.130 off the top
: for about 10.5:1 comp. ratio using 35cc head
: Std crank with cross drilled mains, F-M
: bearings.
: 198 rods using F-M bearings. Balanced bottom
: end.
: Mellings oil pump w/std. spring
: Detailed block, over drilled oil passages,
: risers in lifter galley, fully deburred and
: cleaned.
: Stock pan and pickup with windage tray. Using 6
: quarts 10-30 with 51515 Wix filter. Riser
: pipes in galley and bigger filter hold about
: 3/4 quart up in engine.
: Partial groove on last cam bearing journal for
: more oil to topend. Grooved rocker shaft
: under each rocker.
:
: We think that the piston problem from before
: may have bent or kinked the #6 rod and we
: did not see it when the engine was
: reassembled. All rod bearings have some edge
: loading marks on them, and the #4 main
: smeared the babbit but did not cause any
: damage to the crank. Looks like a
: 0.020" cut on the rods will fix the
: crank, and we have another set of 198 rods
: for a rebuild. Oil pressure runs at 50psi
: all the time, and we really don't know what
: could have happened.
:
: Car ran 15.7 @ 87 in 90° heat the first time at
: the track with a low 2.3 60 foot time,
: shifting 1-2 with the trans and 2-3 manual
: shift. Need tach or lite because we think
: that the trans is shifting at only 4000-4500
: rpm, and the cam wants at least 5200-5500.
: Headed for mid 14 sec at 92-94 in a street
: driven 4 dr car.


This engine has bad karma. (I have a few like that, I'm working to get one of these back together now, hopefully I've scared-out the demons)

As for your rod bearing failure, usually one of two things, clearances or oiling.

Check everything twice, measure everthing carefully, rod bearings should have .001 to .002 clearance, mains .002 to .003 for what you are building.
Check the rod journal to be sure it is sized correctly all the way accross, right up to the edge undercut.
DD


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2002 7:20 pm 
Quote:
: This engine has bad karma. (I have a few like
: that, I'm working to get one of these back
: together now, hopefully I've scared-out the
: demons)
:
: As for your rod bearing failure, usually one of
: two things, clearances or oiling.
:
: Check everything twice, measure everthing
: carefully, rod bearings should have .001 to
: .002 clearance, mains .002 to .003 for what
: you are building.
: Check the rod journal to be sure it is sized
: correctly all the way accross, right up to
: the edge undercut.
: DD


It probably has nothing to do with your case, but I'd like to remind people to use FRESH Plastiguage when they measure clearances. While assembling a 360 a coupla years ago, I was getting some funny readings, which disappeared when I bought 'fresh' Plastiguage.

fglmopar@aol.com


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2002 9:18 am 
Thanks for the reply.
Talked to the machine shop today when I dropped off the parts. They questioned the use of cross drilling the crank, as all of the new race motors they build are not cross drilled or even have full grooved bearings. These are of course Chevy & small Ford motors, and the mains are so narrow a full grooved bearing affects the total surface available for the mains to ride on more than a 6.

Another thing that was discussed was the oiling system, which in a 6 is really pretty good compared to some of the Ford and GM engines. Is the long rotor std. pressure pump enough? Was diverting too much to the top of the motor the cause of #6 rod going bad? This engine still had 40 psi pressure with a rod bearing almost completely gone. Would an accumulator by Moroso help? Really don't think that lack of oil is the problem, just oil clearance.

Looking at the rest of the rod bearings and the mains, we decided to use a new set of 198 rods with ARP 142-6002 bolts all correctly resized and fitted to the crank @ 0.0015"±, regrind the crank to 0.010" on the mains and 0.020" on the rods and fitted to the main bores @ 0.0025"±.

Any further thoughts? Thanks again.


sge041454@aol.com


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2002 7:15 pm 
Quote:
: Thanks for the reply.
: Talked to the machine shop today when I dropped
: off the parts. They questioned the use of
: cross drilling the crank, as all of the new
: race motors they build are not cross drilled
: or even have full grooved bearings. These
: are of course Chevy & small Ford motors,
: and the mains are so narrow a full grooved
: bearing affects the total surface available
: for the mains to ride on more than a 6.
:
: Another thing that was discussed was the oiling
: system, which in a 6 is really pretty good
: compared to some of the Ford and GM engines.
: Is the long rotor std. pressure pump enough?
: Was diverting too much to the top of the
: motor the cause of #6 rod going bad? This
: engine still had 40 psi pressure with a rod
: bearing almost completely gone. Would an
: accumulator by Moroso help? Really don't
: think that lack of oil is the problem, just
: oil clearance.
:
: Looking at the rest of the rod bearings and the
: mains, we decided to use a new set of 198
: rods with ARP 142-6002 bolts all correctly
: resized and fitted to the crank @
: 0.0015"±, regrind the crank to
: 0.010" on the mains and 0.020" on
: the rods and fitted to the main bores @
: 0.0025"±.
: Any further thoughts? Thanks again.


Are you using ARP main studs? You may want to bolt the main caps to the block and make sure the fasteners are not protruding into the oil galley feed holes running down to the mains. You can run a drill or reamer down these holes to be sure they are smooth and clear. You will have to stop at the cam bearings unless you plan to replace those. (The cam bearings will also "pinch down" the feed holes)

I spend a lot of time opening-up the oil passages on a SL6 and "blending" (grinding-off) all the sharp edges and interferance / restriction points.

One other trick is to install a fitting at the back of the main oil gallery, on later cast iron blocks there is a boss already there. Run a hard line from the oil pump's tapped hole, right below the filter base and back to this added fitting. This gets oil pressure directly to the rear main and #6 rod, without having to do the 180 degree turn-a-round at the oil pump mounting pad.
(This is a V8 trick I carried over to the SL6, many V8s (like the Big Block Mopar)run the oil down one lifter galley, cross-over then run the oil back up the other side's galley, the last parts in the line have to wait a while for oil)
DD

Close-up of "by-pass" oil feed to rear main passageway
Image


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2002 8:55 am 
We are not running studs, but will check on the bolts limiting flow in the main bearing oil feeds.

The block has been fully de-burred, and all oil passages were opened up and blended as much as we dared before any machine work was done. The main bearing feeds from the side oil passages were all drilled oversize prior to installing the cam bearings, and I hated to modify the cam bearing itself for fear of a failure there. The main side oil passages were also drilled oversize using a 16" long drill bit. Also drilled out and tapped the boss (top) on the back of the oil passage just in front of the bell housing and have been using this for the fuel pump pressure switch. The oil pump pockets on the suction and discharge were both blended, and the pump itself was taken apart and all internal passages were smoothed and blended as well.

Really spent a lot of time in the first place to make sure that the block was as good as we could get it for oil control before any machine work was done. Looking at the failures, we really think that the rods were not sized correctly, and that by regrinding the crank and installing correctly sized and fitted rods we should solve the problem. As a warning to all, never assume that a re-man-ed rod is correct no matter who you buy it from. I think now that all rods, regardless of where they come from or even if new, in a good rebuild should be checked or resized on the correct tooling by a shop you can trust before being used.


sgw041454@aol.com


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