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 Post subject: Re: 1BBL stumble
PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2025 9:10 pm 
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Seepage at plugs: yes.
At casting parting lines: no, I think that's just a ledge where gasoline collects and so leaves a more prominently visible stain.

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 Post subject: Re: 1BBL stumble
PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2025 10:45 pm 
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Turbo Slant 6
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Location: Los Angeles, CA
Car Model: 1963 Dart 170 Suburban
Odd that the noticeable seepage is happening at flush plugs that are never removed, vs. removable plugs that are replaced during rebuilds. One thought: I tried two different aftermarket fuel pumps post-carburetor installation, and both generated too much pressure. Gasoline was leaking through the new carb body gaskets before I decided to rebuild the original fuel pump which got me the correct fuel pressure. Since I got the pump situation corrected, the outside of the carburetor has never appeared fully "dry", even though I have wiped it down.


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 Post subject: Re: 1BBL stumble
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2025 4:00 am 
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TBI Slant 6

Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2023 5:12 am
Posts: 196
Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Car Model: 1964 Dart 270 4-Door
Quote:
This would appear to be happening. Telltale drips on the exhaust manifold below certain carb body plugs I’ve never before removed indicate leakage. See the arrows. Also, the entire carb body has a rather “wet” appearance that I don’t recall it having on prior rebuilds. I see what looks like seepage happening at cast joints :shock: :(
Image

As Dan said, those aren't joints, they're just seams.

And you will observe that the drips are forming on the lowest points of the body.

From your photo, it also looks like the airhorn gasket itself is dry, which, if true almost rules it out as the source.

You fuel inlet / needle seat washer looks very wet though. And looks to me like it may be doubled-up.
If it is slowly oozing fuel, the fuel can crawl along the surface of the carburetor, especially along ledges like those casting seams, and cling as it runs down to the lowest point(s).

I would check the tightness there, and then re-check your float level.

– Eric


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 Post subject: Re: 1BBL stumble
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2025 2:55 pm 
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More I think on it, more I suspect your float valve is making a pest of itself. That "Daytona Float Valve" they claim is so much better than a regular ol' normal ol' boring ol' inlet needle and seat, that's a copycat of the old Tomco "Duro-7" design, and — assuming it was a good design in the first place — something might've got lost in translation. I can think of a few ways a not-quite-faithful copy would cause problems such as you're having.

Too, and secondarily, I've never liked those red fibre inlet fitting gaskets. The rubber-coated aluminum ones seem to do a better job of keeping things dry. Might wanna sigh, grumble, and fetch a kit from Jon Hardgrove at TheCarburetorShop.com . It'll have the regular kind of inlet needle/seat, and together with careful float readjustment will likely solve all or most of the problem(s).

As to the carb body plugs: kinda stands to reason that plugs in place for decades' worth of thermal cycles, made of a different metal than the carb body, will've had time to become less than totally leakproof. I might apply a smart rap to each one via a pin punch, with the carb firmly installed.

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 Post subject: Re: 1BBL stumble
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 1:17 pm 
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Turbo Slant 6
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Location: Los Angeles, CA
Car Model: 1963 Dart 170 Suburban
Quote:
As Dan said, those aren't joints, they're just seams.
Thanks, noted.
Quote:
And you will observe that the drips are forming on the lowest points of the body.
I see that. Need to wipe it down thoroughly dry and let it sit for a day or so to reveal the source.
Quote:
From your photo, it also looks like the airhorn gasket itself is dry, which, if true almost rules it out as the source.
I'm hopeful. Ever since the carb flooded from excess pump pressure, I don't feel like I've gotten the carb body adequately dry. Even though I've confirmed the bowl vent disc is properly positioned with the correct clearance, wetness appears around it after the engine has run for some time. Peculiar. :?:
Quote:
You fuel inlet / needle seat washer looks very wet though. And looks to me like it may be doubled-up.
If it is slowly oozing fuel, the fuel can crawl along the surface of the carburetor, especially along ledges like those casting seams, and cling as it runs down to the lowest point(s).

I would check the tightness there, and then re-check your float level.
Great point. Yes, I did double up the fiber washers, as two came in the rebuild kit and the brass fuel inlet fitting appeared to need the shimming. However, they may not be up to the task of creating a good seal against gasoline. I'll likely try to find a better washer, as Dan recommends.


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 Post subject: Re: 1BBL stumble
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 1:32 pm 
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Turbo Slant 6
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Location: Los Angeles, CA
Car Model: 1963 Dart 170 Suburban
Quote:
More I think on it, more I suspect your float valve is making a pest of itself. That "Daytona Float Valve" they claim is so much better than a regular ol' normal ol' boring ol' inlet needle and seat, that's a copycat of the old Tomco "Duro-7" design, and — assuming it was a good design in the first place — something might've got lost in translation. I can think of a few ways a not-quite-faithful copy would cause problems such as you're having.
I've probably rebuilt this carburetor at least three times in the last 15 years. Only this last rebuild did I finally try that "new" Daytona float valve you say is a copycat design. I've tried using it in the past and had problems with it. The first two rebuild kits from Daytona came with two different options for the fuel inlet: 1) their 'new', copycat design, and 2) some kind of a brass fitting that has some sort of pressed-together plunger-seal valve. I ended up using that one because it worked. I saved that fitting: perhaps I'll re-use it for now. Pictures of it attached, below.
Quote:
Too, and secondarily, I've never liked those red fibre inlet fitting gaskets. The rubber-coated aluminum ones seem to do a better job of keeping things dry. Might wanna sigh, grumble, and fetch a kit from Jon Hardgrove at TheCarburetorShop.com . It'll have the regular kind of inlet needle/seat, and together with careful float readjustment will likely solve all or most of the problem(s).
Thanks for the advice. I'll attempt to source a different, rubber coated, gas-resistant washer for that location. Perhaps a kit from Jon would solve some of these problems, probably not the accelerator pump issue I'm having though...?
Quote:
As to the carb body plugs: kinda stands to reason that plugs in place for decades' worth of thermal cycles, made of a different metal than the carb body, will've had time to become less than totally leakproof. I might apply a smart rap to each one via a pin punch, with the carb firmly installed.
Thanks! Once I've torn the carb apart to solve the accelerator pump issue, I'll give them a good rap upon re-assembly.


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 Post subject: Re: 1BBL stumble
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 2:58 pm 
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That's a Holley-type design which works well on certain Holley carburetors. It does not belong in your Carter carburetor, where its side-discharge configuration will tend to make gasoline want to exit the carb through the bowl vent…in exchange for zero benefit.

Writing this now, I'm thinking back on other nonstandard float valve designs. The Grose-Jet, for example, used two metal balls and no rubber. Similar claims as for the Daytona Float Valve: ZOMGWOW!!1!!!!!1!!! GREAT MASSIVE BIG IMPROVEMENT IN CARBURETOR FUNCTION!!1!!!1!!! REVOLUTIONARY NEW DESIGN THIS CHANGES EVERYTHINGS!!!!1!!!!

I found the Grose-Jet didn't practically improve anything about carburetor operation, and it made new problems very much like those solved by the 1961 introduction of the rubber-tipped inlet needle.

So anymore, I'm inclined to file magic carburetor float valves right along with magic spark plugs, under N for Nope.

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 Post subject: Re: 1BBL stumble
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 4:21 pm 
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Turbo Slant 6
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 12:59 pm
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Location: Los Angeles, CA
Car Model: 1963 Dart 170 Suburban
Quote:
That's a Holley-type design which works well on certain Holley carburetors. It does not belong in your Carter carburetor, where its side-discharge configuration will tend to make gasoline want to exit the carb through the bowl vent…in exchange for zero benefit.
:!: Ahh....no wonder the bowl vent area has appeared wet for years. Never put that together. Well...shoot. Need to change that out to the tried and true needle/seat.
Quote:
So anymore, I'm inclined to file magic carburetor float valves right along with magic spark plugs, under N for Nope.
Yeap, that sounds about right for this day and age. :?


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 Post subject: Re: 1BBL stumble
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2025 11:32 am 
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Turbo Slant 6
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Location: Los Angeles, CA
Car Model: 1963 Dart 170 Suburban
Big thanks to Dan Stern for the help locating the correct rubber-coated washers that are now keeping the fuel inlet dry. And also for the advice about the needle/seat situation. Sourced a new (original design) needle/seat inlet and already things seem drier than they ever have been.

I opened the carb back up not only to install the correct needle and seat, but also to inspect the check balls to be sure they weren't stuck, and to find out why I'm not getting a healthy squirt of fuel whenever the accelerator pump engages. Turns out, even with my normally-diligent carburetor cleaning, there were nearly invisible, gummy deposits clogging the inside of the accelerator pump jet. I had to get out a sewing needle to help clear the passages. Once clean, a pump test with fuel in the bowl finally resulted in a relatively light spray of fuel through the jet into the carb throat. Good. Re-calibrated the float levels, then re-installed the carb.

For a short time, the driving/running improvement was noticeable. I'd step on the gas, there was no stumble. I could actually observe the pump working. Then, I noticed that sometimes the pump sticks. You'll work the throttle linkage and the pump will plunge down slowly, if at all. I know I've done the preconditioning of the leather cup correctly, and after driving it last night when it was stumbling all over the place, I'm thinking my accelerator pump spring may be the issue.

I have reused my old pump spring many times because it seems tapered correctly from narrow at the plunger end, to wider at the top end to mate with the metal 'cup' that seals the pump vent hole. The new accelerator pump springs that come in the Daytona kits do not taper at all. Their coil is wound too tightly so the end of the spring that rests inside the rim of that metal cup doesn't sit around the edges of the cup correctly to press it firmly up against the inside of the airhorn; all the spring wants to do is poke through the center hole of that cup seal.

Given I'm going to have to open the carb back up again to work through the pump issue, it's worth asking: is the pump spring supposed to be tapered? Or is it supposed to be straight, and I just have a too-narrow spring? Please give me your thoughts, thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: 1BBL stumble
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2025 2:48 pm 
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Quote:
Big thanks to Dan Stern for the help locating the correct rubber-coated washers that are now keeping the fuel inlet dry
Glad to help out. For everyone out in televisionland, the Carter BBS + BBD (also Bendix Stromberg WA + WW) rubber-coated aluminum inlet needle-seat washers are these, and I'll go add that link to the sticky carb post here.
Quote:
And also for the advice about the needle/seat situation. Sourced a new (original design) needle/seat inlet and already things seem drier than they ever have been.
Yayy!
Quote:
there were nearly invisible, gummy deposits clogging the inside of the accelerator pump jet. I had to get out a sewing needle to help clear the passages. Once clean, a pump test with fuel in the bowl finally resulted in a relatively light spray of fuel through the jet into the carb throat.
What's 'relatively light' mean here?
Quote:
sometimes the pump sticks. You'll work the throttle linkage and the pump will plunge down slowly, if at all.
H'mm. Sounds like intermittent blockage between the bottom of the plunger well and the outlet of the pump jet. Could also be some part of the linkage or spring hanging/snagging/binding.
Quote:
I have reused my old pump spring many times because it seems tapered correctly from narrow at the plunger end, to wider at the top end to mate with the metal 'cup' that seals the pump vent hole.
Confirmed; that's the correct design. Carefully stretching this spring pays dividends. Grab it with pliers at both ends and stretch it just past the point where it springs back to exactly where it was before. Not too far, or you'll spoil the spring. You want it to wind up just a little longer than it was.
Quote:
The new accelerator pump springs that come in the Daytona kits do not taper at all. Their coil is wound too tightly so the end of the spring that rests inside the rim of that metal cup doesn't sit around the edges of the cup correctly to press it firmly up against the inside of the airhorn; all the spring wants to do is poke through the center hole of that cup seal.
More I hear about Daytona's kits lately, dimmer my view of them. This plus the other bum parts already mentioned move them into the do-not-buy category as far as I'm concerned.

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 Post subject: Re: 1BBL stumble
PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2025 12:37 am 
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Turbo Slant 6
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Location: Los Angeles, CA
Car Model: 1963 Dart 170 Suburban
Quote:
What's 'relatively light' mean here?
When last I had the carb disassembled, with fuel in the bowl I forced the pump plunger down into its well, and I got a small stream of gasoline out of the accel pump jet into the carb throat, just as you said I should. But the plunger doesn't forcefully depress into that well all on its own (which seems to be happening frequently), so the resulting spray through the pump jet is anemic and frothy; at least 50% of the time.


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 Post subject: Re: 1BBL stumble
PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2025 2:39 pm 
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Sounds like y'still got work to do, then. There's a blockage in there somewhere. Try backflushing the pump circuit with spray carb cleaner.

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 Post subject: Re: 1BBL stumble
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2025 5:17 pm 
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Turbo Slant 6
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I'm getting back into it right now.

Original spring length measures 1 5/8". Daytona spring measures 2 1/8". Now, I'm questioning their parts, wondering what length is correct. But Dan, you said stretch the original spring so it returns to just past its original length, that would still be a good deal shorter than the Daytona spring...?

PS: MAN, that original spring does NOT want to stretch longer! It keeps returning to the same length and I’ve gone past where I think I’d need to go to get it to stretch. Stern stuff this old spring.


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 Post subject: Re: 1BBL stumble
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2025 4:34 pm 
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Turbo Slant 6
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Location: Los Angeles, CA
Car Model: 1963 Dart 170 Suburban
Thanks to everyone who's weighed in on this. Finally got the original spring stretched a bit and reassembled.

Wow. :shock: What a nice difference that makes! No stumble at all. Strong jet of fuel on acceleration. Drives like it should now :D

This reminds of my relatively cherry, little 'ol lady aqua colored '64 Dart. Car ran great when cold but warmed up, it had an annoying accelerator stumble I put up with for years and never fixed before I sold it. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: 1BBL stumble
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2025 1:04 pm 
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Wahoo! :mrgreen:

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